Utopia Now! Squadron Supreme Appreciation

[Hypestyle]

there needs to be a Nighthawk and Blue Marvel mini-series. There's no excuse not to explore this potentially explosive relationship.

[Michael Watkins]

there needs to be a Nighthawk and Blue Marvel mini-series. There's no excuse not to explore this potentially explosive relationship.

I'd be very much onboard for that. I think there'd be mutual respect (mixed with a bit of mutual hate); between the two. Blue Marvel's basically a Superman who can make use of prep time. that's pretty scary.

[Ken Ashcroft]

Hey, Superman has super intelligence and can make the best use of prep time as well as anyone if he wanted to but he just wants to give everyone a chance against him and Simply use his fists to beat them up instead.

[Michael Watkins]

Hey, Superman has super intelligence and can make the best use of prep time as well as anyone if he wanted to but he just wants to give everyone a chance against him and Simply use his fists to beat them up instead.

are you Superman's publicist? if so, good job.

[Ken Ashcroft]

Great Ceasar's ghost!This isn't the Superman forum?

[Michael Watkins]

I think something happened to Namor to weaken him; post Secret Wars. I don't think he had his "magic" (so to speak), when Hyperion took his head off. I think this because Namor bothered to talk. he almost seemed to be pleading with the squadron before they killed him. sure, Venom has been able to injure him in the past. but i'll chalk up his poor showing against the Squadron to him already being in a weakened state.

[CentralPower]

I have been a fan of the Squadron for ~25 years now. It was the first mini-series of more than 4 issues that I completed. And, it was the first complete store that I read that I could talk to the grown-ups at the comic shop about. (At the age of 12 or so, that was a big damn deal.)

The Squadron is on of, if not my last, remaining fan weak spots. If it is based on the Squadron, I am going to at least look at it. I might even buy it, no matter how bad it is.


The Squadron is a good example of how even a foundationally stupid idea can be given merit. Initially, the Squadron was a dumb gimmick that let Marvel's Avengers beat up on guys who looked (nothing at all) like the Justice League. Years later, Gruenwald applied some aggressive back-writing, creating a new Squadron (that was totally the real one, with the bad guy Squadron being the copies) that let the Avengers team up with (often saving) a bunch of guys who were (totally not at all) like the Justice League.

Then, Gruenwald wrote a 12 issue "Squadron Supreme" series that was the best Justice League story that DC had never published. As much a product of the 80s (Bronze Age) as it was, as painful as the explication and dialogue are in places, "the Squadron Supreme" was brilliant for the time it came out and still warrants a measure of praise.

Now, to the thread-specific questions.....


-Favourite iteration of the Squadron: Either the Gruenwald or Robinson (current) iterations.

-Favourite member: Speed Demon (Thomas). Hyperion or Nighthawk (Gruenwald). Hyperion (Staczynski et al). Nighthawk or Zarda (Guggenheim). Hyperion or Blurr (Robinson).

-Favourite adversary: Nighthawk's Redeemers. (The proverbial "ticking clock" in "Squadron Sinister" is a close second though.)

-Namor: The whole scenario is problematic for reasons that go beyond the series. Marvel seems to have changed direction towards the end of "Secret Wars", and my guess is that Robinson was caught flat-footed. Namor and the Squadron effectively remember and react to events that (according to Hickman) never happened. Marvel has been inconsistent on this question elsewhere, but it has been a particular issue in the current "Squadron Supreme". (I am fine with event being over-written. But, Marvel needs to stop picking the scab and move on.)

-dream fight: Squadron v/s the Ultimates. ("Ultimates" is doing things that I would like to see in a Squadron-series, and there are already thematic parallels.)

-favourite Squadron story: Either the 12 issue Gruenwald series from the 80s or the Ewing-written "Avengers" #34.2.

-Utopia Program: After 30 years, the idea warrants another look. But, it should be in a self-contained series, rather than being force-fitted to mainline Marvel.

-ketchup on a hotdog: There are so many better choices, but it should be an individual choice.




CentralPower
-no, really. Sorta fond of the Squadron.

[Michael Watkins]

I have been a fan of the Squadron for ~25 years now. It was the first mini-series of more than 4 issues that I completed. And, it was the first complete store that I read that I could talk to the grown-ups at the comic shop about. (At the age of 12 or so, that was a big damn deal.)

I’ve only recently been turned on to it. But I’ve been reading for almost, as long. I was more of an X-men fan; at the start.

The Squadron is a good example of how even a foundationally stupid idea can be given merit. Initially, the Squadron was a dumb gimmick that let Marvel's Avengers beat up on guys who looked (nothing at all) like the Justice League. Years later, Gruenwald applied some aggressive back-writing, creating a new Squadron (that was totally the real one, with the bad guy Squadron being the copies) that let the Avengers team up with (often saving) a bunch of guys who were (totally not at all) like the Justice League.

Yeah, I get what you’re saying. I started with the utopia project stuff. But I have also done a lot of backissue shopping to see their earlier interactions with the Avengers. The characters do tend to be the butt of the joke. I wasn’t aware that Gruenwald was cleaning up the history. But I’m glad that he did. The end product had a lot of storytelling potential. I wish that their universe had existed long enough for there to be a Squadron “teen titans” for lack of a better description. Bummed that Tom Thumb died. He was pretty unique.

Then, Gruenwald wrote a 12 issue "Squadron Supreme" series that was the best Justice League story that DC had never published. As much a product of the 80s (Bronze Age) as it was, as painful as the explication and dialogue are in places, "the Squadron Supreme" was brilliant for the time it came out and still warrants a measure of praise.

certainly

-Favourite member: Speed Demon (Thomas). Hyperion or Nighthawk (Gruenwald). Hyperion (Staczynski et al). Nighthawk or Zarda (Guggenheim). Hyperion or Blurr (Robinson).

Interesting. I wasn’t expecting anyone to namedrop Speed Demon. He was one of the reasons why I loved the Sinister Syndicate.

-Favourite adversary: Nighthawk's Redeemers. (The proverbial "ticking clock" in "Squadron Sinister" is a close second though.)

Yeah, the Redeemers seem to be pretty popular. I wonder if they have 616 counterparts.

-Namor: The whole scenario is problematic for reasons that go beyond the series. Marvel seems to have changed direction towards the end of "Secret Wars", and my guess is that Robinson was caught flat-footed. Namor and the Squadron effectively remember and react to events that (according to Hickman) never happened. Marvel has been inconsistent on this question elsewhere, but it has been a particular issue in the current "Squadron Supreme". (I am fine with event being over-written. But, Marvel needs to stop picking the scab and move on.)

Good news is that Namor is returning shortly. And it doesn’t look like they will be continuing with him as a villain (he’s fighting Warrior Woman on the cover).

-dream fight: Squadron v/s the Ultimates. ("Ultimates" is doing things that I would like to see in a Squadron-series, and there are already thematic parallels.)

Good point. I do wish that the Squadron were operating on a larger scale; like the Ultimates.

-Utopia Program: After 30 years, the idea warrants another look. But, it should be in a self-contained series, rather than being force-fitted to mainline Marvel.

Fair enough. Squadron book or should it be in something like Thunderbolts?

[CentralPower]

The characters do tend to be the butt of the joke. I wasn’t aware that Gruenwald was cleaning up the history. But I’m glad that he did. The end product had a lot of storytelling potential. I wish that their universe had existed long enough for there to be a Squadron “teen titans” for lack of a better description. Bummed that Tom Thumb died. He was pretty unique.

Thumb's death was necessary for the comic to work though. (It showed that even the best of intentions and abilities have limits, which was the point of the 12 issue series.)

The Squadron had plenty of time, roughly 30 years. But, they had relatively few appearances, and even fewer *good* appearances. (You ever read that Thomas issue of "Thor" where Hyperion shows up to invite Thor to be in a movi? It is bad enough to make you understand why people still tend to look down on comics as a medium.)

As fond as I am of the Gruenwald Squadron, I cannot be too upset that they were established as being dead in the current series.

Good news is that Namor is returning shortly. And it doesn’t look like they will be continuing with him as a villain (he’s fighting Warrior Woman on the cover).

Like I said, the problem was the Marvel had a quick change in direction, and the current "Squadron Supreme" series has suffered for it.

[Michael Watkins]

Thumb's death was necessary for the comic to work though. (It showed that even the best of intentions and abilities have limits, which was the point of the 12 issue series.)

The Squadron had plenty of time, roughly 30 years. But, they had relatively few appearances, and even fewer *good* appearances. (You ever read that Thomas issue of "Thor" where Hyperion shows up to invite Thor to be in a movi? It is bad enough to make you understand why people still tend to look down on comics as a medium.)

I think I may have read the reprint. is this separate from the one where emil Burbank showed up spouting craziness? I vaguely remember Hyperion seeming not all that impressive; strength-wise. it read very much like a Mad Magazine version of a justice league story.

As fond as I am of the Gruenwald Squadron, I cannot be too upset that they were established as being dead in the current series.

right. there's definitely room for improvement.

Like I said, the problem was the Marvel had a quick change in direction, and the current "Squadron Supreme" series has suffered for it.

I was hoping that they'd be able to take advantage of this stuff with Ulysses. it seems like a Squadron story; deciding what to do with some kind of ultimate power. I have no idea where they are going with the Zarda stuff. and how can the team last, if they are all on different pages; so to speak? Spectrum flies into a rage whenever Namor is mentioned. Hyperion has a case of the guilts; I think. Blur just follows Nighthawk's lead. Thundra is basically just looking for a new mate. and OG Zarda is completely against their mission statement. despite working like a military fighting unit, they are more of a non-team than the Defenders; some times.

[CentralPower]

I am not sure how much leeway that Robinson had with using "Civil War", even if it would have been thematically appropriate. That sort of thing has been a huge problem with the current series. It is probably not Robinson's fault. But, that series is 8 issues along, and is only now (barely) starting to find direction.

Robinson has set up to use the fact that the team are not on the same page. (Note Blurr's musing on the team in issue 4, maybe issue 5.) I am hoping that Robinson picks up some threads from the "Hyperion" series (such as the "Maker" alien.)

I vaguely remember Hyperion seeming not all that impressive; strength-wise. it read very much like a Mad Magazine version of a justice league story.

It was very much a "Mad Magazine" riff on the Justice League, complete with Thor being so impressive to the Lois Lane analogue.

[Michael Watkins]

I am not sure how much leeway that Robinson had with using "Civil War", even if it would have been thematically appropriate. That sort of thing has been a huge problem with the current series. It is probably not Robinson's fault. But, that series is 8 issues along, and is only now (barely) starting to find direction.

Robinson has set up to use the fact that the team are not on the same page. (Note Blurr's musing on the team in issue 4, maybe issue 5.) I am hoping that Robinson picks up some threads from the "Hyperion" series (such as the "Maker" alien.)

fully agreed. i didn't find anything similar to it in my backissue readings. i wonder where the 'Maker' is from and how it will be used; in the future. it's a potential game changer since it created mutates that could hurt Hyperion. Junior seems to still be a threat (at least to Doll).

It was very much a "Mad Magazine" riff on the Justice League, complete with Thor being so impressive to the Lois Lane analogue.

kind of a jarring transition to go from that spoof to, much later, the MAX versions of the characters.

[CentralPower]

Wendig likely had more plans for the Maker alien. But, with "Hyperion" ending this month, it is safe to assume we are not likely to know what they are/were. (Somebody wanna track him down and ask him?)

The idea of an alien with some kind of primal creator power would fit nicely with Hyperion and the Squadron as a whole. They flirt with playing god. And, a creator alien would compliment that idea. Maybe it will show up in the main "Squadron" series.

(I am sort of cross about "Hyperion" ending. That series had so much potential.)

[Michael Watkins]

Wendig likely had more plans for the Maker alien. But, with "Hyperion" ending this month, it is safe to assume we are not likely to know what they are/were. (Somebody wanna track him down and ask him?)

The idea of an alien with some kind of primal creator power would fit nicely with Hyperion and the Squadron as a whole. They flirt with playing god. And, a creator alien would compliment that idea. Maybe it will show up in the main "Squadron" series.

(I am sort of cross about "Hyperion" ending. That series had so much potential.)

shucks, the cancellation was confirmed? how does a character like that do so poorly. i much appreciated the x-files vibe of the first story. there were so many supervillains that i wanted to see Hype clash with. wish they hadn't wasted last isuse on a Thundra/Hyperion hook-up issue now. I wonder what will happen to Doll. i'm not normally into child sidekicks. but she's interesting enough. Marc is kind of wooden. she helps to humanize him.

I doubt it but they could always use that 'Starro' to give Zarda her powers back.

on another note, maybe it'd help for them to combine Nighthawk and Hyperion's books; make it an ongoing double-feature, like in the Marvel Feature days.

[CentralPower]

Sales just were not there for "Hyperion". As much as I love that series, people were not buying in. (Some comic readers have little patience for minor characters and/or series that do not involve "main character punching bad guys". "Hyperion" lacks those things.)

I think that Robinson de-powered Zarda to make her similar to 70s Wonder Woman.

Not sure that the Maker alien was supposed to be Starro. (It is too willing to make deals, and is probably not malicious.)