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  1. #7426
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    Storm is talking to Sinister and Exodus. The usual 'because it's the right thing' shpiel wasn't going to work and she explained it in terms they could understand. That's literally all that's going on there.

  2. #7427
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    If anything, Storm was making a point to Sinister and Exodus, that even they can’t argue against.

  3. #7428
    Militantly Indifferent Kisinith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Seems to me that some are being obtuse about gonnagiveittoya's point: Storm isn't directly saying humans are as low as bees, but when have the X-Men fought for humans because of the ecosystem? Or how humans benefit mutants? Used to be that the X-Men would defend even hateful humans because it was the right thing to do.
    Storm countering a bad argument put forward by Sinister and Exodus about the nature of ecological dependence does not equate to that being the only reason she would fight for humans, or even a major reason or even a slightly important one. She was putting two loudmouths in their place by demonstrating their ignorance. Her line had everything to do with Exodus and Sinister's motivations and nothing about her own

  4. #7429
    Mighty Member Baron of Faltine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    Storm is talking to Sinister and Exodus. The usual 'because it's the right thing' shpiel wasn't going to work and she explained it in terms they could understand. That's literally all that's going on there.
    Yeah out of context sound bad, but with picture and with the restoration story you realise that
    A) she is putting it in the simplest term possible for those two morons to understand(in a spoofshe would put out a blackboard and make child drawings for them to get that kill innocent people is bad)
    B) love how Storm is depicted as being repulsed to talk to them! She can barely hold her stomach talking to those fiends. (Also just realised that Jean and the summmers family choose to live on funking moon rather than share space with certain people more than necessary...)

  5. #7430
    Militantly Indifferent Kisinith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Maybe not that far, but if the second law states only to have children, isn't that compulsion? I'm sure the writers would simply say that there's no enforcement on this law anyway, but then why word the law that way other than shock/design value?
    I could debate this but, I think considering that Hickman already addressed it, his words should be good enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan Hickman
    "Well, obviously, ‘Make More Mutants’ is a play on ‘No More Mutants’ so any confusion about this comes from me loving the poetry of how the three laws sound when you read them together instead of them being the actual codified laws with restrictions and provisions and what not.

    Saying that, even a strict reading of the law doesn’t change the fact that I showed you three (four if you were watching closely) ways that mutants can reproduce, and only one of those is in the ‘traditional’ hetro manner (that’s also leaving out pretty commonplace practices like IVF and surrogacy, which seem to me to support the spirit of the law).

    Also, no, I don’t think not wanting to have kids is against the law (but I do however think that this wouldn’t be a popular sentiment in the world that we’ve built)."

    "...I do want to point out that story-wise we’re also leaning into the fact that there are going to be thousands of mutant children showing up on Krakoa in search of their mutant family. So while a spirit of adoption isn’t really what you were asking about, I do think it matters contextually as what we’re talking about here is a communal parent/child relationship and what flows from that into the next generation."
    link

    From the authors own mouth, there is nothing coercive or punitive about the law. That last point was also addressed in the books in excalibur with Rogue wrestling with the idea of if she wanted to be a mom. spoiler, for now at least she decided against it, and no punishment. We have, published examples of
    1) Human relatives living in Krakoa
    2) Mutants raising human children without even the hint of punishment or censure
    3) Mutants making a conscious choice not to have children without even the hint of punishment or censure
    Last edited by Kisinith; 06-20-2021 at 01:07 PM.

  6. #7431

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kisinith View Post
    Bullcrap, we already know this is false because Shogo was living there without any problems until Jubilee chose to go the the lighthouse in Excalibur. This is pure nonsense, the 2nd law says nothing about penalizing people who don't have kids or whos kids turn out human. You are making up things that haven't even been hinted at in an attempt to throw shade at Krakoa.
    The law may be vaguely worded, but it is a law. Presumably that'd entail that it's possible to violate that law.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Seems to me that some are being obtuse about gonnagiveittoya's point: Storm isn't directly saying humans are as low as bees, but when have the X-Men fought for humans because of the ecosystem? Or how humans benefit mutants? Used to be that the X-Men would defend even hateful humans because it was the right thing to do.
    Yes, precisely

  7. #7432
    Militantly Indifferent Kisinith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonnagiveittoya View Post
    The law may be vaguely worded, but it is a law. Presumably that'd entail that it's possible to violate that law.
    So we're down to throwing stones for what they might possibly do if the law is interpreted in a very narrow specific way that hasn't been shown in any book, hasn't been hinted at in any book, is directly contradicted by actual events in the books, and is in direct violation of what the author has stated about the law.

  8. #7433
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kisinith View Post
    Storm countering a bad argument put forward by Sinister and Exodus about the nature of ecological dependence does not equate to that being the only reason she would fight for humans, or even a major reason or even a slightly important one. She was putting two loudmouths in their place by demonstrating their ignorance. Her line had everything to do with Exodus and Sinister's motivations and nothing about her own
    Fair enough, and I can see quite clearly how little patience Storm has for their nonsense. I still think, those characters being who they are (admittedly I don't know much about Exodus other than he's been an antagonist), that they don't deserve an answer on their terms. Besides, that argument just isn't going to work anyway, it was a nice moment for Storm but ultimately meaningless in regards to them. That is just my personal opinion, I don't think I'll ever be okay with certain characters working so closely with the X-Men no matter how disgusted some of them are about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kisinith View Post
    I could debate this but, I think considering that Hickman already addressed it, his words should be good enough.


    link

    From the authors own mouth, there is nothing coercive or punitive about the law. That last point was also addressed in the books in excalibur with Rogue wrestling with the idea of if she wanted to be a mom. spoiler, for now at least she decided against it, and no punishment. We have, published examples of
    1) Human relatives living in Krakoa
    2) Mutants raising human children without even the hint of punishment or censure
    3) Mutants making a conscious choice not to have children without even the hint of punishment or censure
    Also fair enough. I hadn't seen that interview by Hickman, I tend not to seek that stuff out, but as you can see he himself says that there was bound to be confusion because he liked the sound of the phrase. Having seen this, that's all I need to move on from this point.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  9. #7434
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davetvs View Post
    I don't like it therefore it shouldn't exist? Lol
    Hickman made X-men heartless, something they never were, it causes confusion about the kind of people the X-men are. Hickman should have used his own characters.

    It is a fiction, I consider itís bad fiction compared to previous stuff, is bad fiction necessarily need to exist other than making money for Marvel?

  10. #7435
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    Sinister and Exodus are on the council. For better or worse, they can't be ignored. Storm could have just not been involved in the council discussion and gone herself, especially since she brought no one else with her, but then she'd risk getting kicked off the council like Jean was. By securing a vote sanctioning her involvement she could help and keep her position so she could continue to oppose them on the council.

    The precedent set by X of Swords is that the captains can use their wartime authority to get involved and requisition whatever mutants they want, but council members need explicit permission from the rest of the council to get involved. So Magik needed no one's permission to go herself or bring along the Dark Riders, but Storm couldn't go with Magik until the council voted in her favor just like how Jean was punished by being kicked off the council for going with Scott in X of Swords even though no one could lift a finger to stop Scott or do anything about the dozens of other mutants he brought along.

  11. #7436
    Fantastic Member Starfish's Avatar
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    The concept of Omega mutants and power level classifications in general don't add anything of value to characters, only constricts creativity, and creates needless arguing among the fanbase. It's one of those ideas that should have remained in the past and hopefully it'll be headed back to the trash heap before Hickman's run comes to a close.

  12. #7437
    Spectacular Member Doom'nGloom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starfish View Post
    The concept of Omega mutants and power level classifications in general don't add anything of value to characters, only constricts creativity, and creates needless arguing among the fanbase. It's one of those ideas that should have remained in the past and hopefully it'll be headed back to the trash heap before Hickman's run comes to a close.
    Couldn't agree more.

    Unpopular opinion: Asking where the Avengers/FF were when the X-men could use their help is the same as asking where the X-men were when Kang/Galactus came to conquer/consume earth for the billionth time and both questions are ridiculous as it has more to do with the nature of comics than the specific characters.

  13. #7438
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    For the most part I agree that the Avengers don't have to be around to help the X-Men deal with their threats. The problem is that so often when they do get involved it's as an antagonistic force. Second Coming had the heroes gather outside the Bastion dome and try to get in. That was good. They tried to help but couldn't. But with AvX the Avengers became needlessly antagonistic, and afterwards it really seemed like they didn't care whatsoever about mutant rights or survival. Captain America had no problem using the threat of anti-mutant forces in the US government to blackmail Wolverine into going to see Cyclops in jail - knowing full-well that there was a high probability Wolverine would murder Cyclops in cold blood. Then the Avengers and Shield were all over the X-Men for rescuing mutants who were being attacked by bigoted police or by sentinels. It creates the impression that they're fine with anti-mutant bigotry and violence. Captain America was more sympathetic to mutants when he was head of Hydra than when he was supposedly a good man.

  14. #7439
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doom'nGloom View Post
    Unpopular opinion: Asking where the Avengers/FF were when the X-men could use their help is the same as asking where the X-men were when Kang/Galactus came to conquer/consume earth for the billionth time and both questions are ridiculous as it has more to do with the nature of comics than the specific characters.
    So agree on this point. The Celestial Fourth Host showed up to 'judge' whether or not the Earth was fit to survive or a failed experiment, and only Thor and the Eternals showed up. No Avengers, no FF, and no X-folk. It's just who was there, at the time. Not every crisis that plotz down on Yancy Street is going to be *noticed* by some mutants hanging out a couple hundred miles away in upstate New York. (They'll hear about in the news, long after it's over, same as everyone else!)

    I don't thinks it's a personal failing on the part of the X-Men that they rarely show up to fight Annihilus or Galactus or Ultron or Kang or Thanos or the Masters of Evil. And it's not a personal failing on the part of the Avengers or Fantastic Four that they don't show up to fight Sinister, Apocalypse or the Phalanx. (Although there are the occasional bits of cross-pollination, such as the Morlock Massacre, when Thor got involved and smote the Marauder named Blockbuster dead with a hammer to the noggin, or Onslaught, when all three teams showed up.)

  15. #7440
    Incredible Member davetvs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kisinith View Post
    So we're down to throwing stones for what they might possibly do if the law is interpreted in a very narrow specific way that hasn't been shown in any book, hasn't been hinted at in any book, is directly contradicted by actual events in the books, and is in direct violation of what the author has stated about the law.
    This sums up half of the complaints about this run. It's not even worth it to continue to go back and forth about it. Enjoy it if you enjoy it, ignore it if you don't.

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