Your Unpopular/Controversial Opinions on the X-Universe

[Witchfan]

The serum was taken out of Rachel's system. She is just an athlete now. She could still develop a mutant power. Domino speculated that Rachel might have a power.

[Devaishwarya]

1: Eventhough their bodies are cloned from genetic material, I think of the resurrected mutants on Krakoa as the "real deal".
Yes...it's not the very same bodies they came out of their mothers' wombs with years ago, but the majority of mutants/X-Men with the exception of a very few have had their bodies manipulated in some form or the other throughout x-history that the original/clone distinction is beyond moot.
Case in point: When Xavier was infected by a Brood Queen, the Shi'ar transferred his consciousness into a clone that was able to walk. From that point on...for all intents and purposes, that was/is the real Xavier and the X-Men and New Mutants saw him as such. They didn't differentiate that he was a clone. I'm not making that distinction, either.

2: I always thought (and still do) the Psylocke/Kwannon body-mind merge was an original and very interesting bit of plotting. While I understand this "woke" generation's fragile sensibilities on the matters of ethnic erasure and cultural appropriation in the real world, I do greatly appreciate the sci-fi/fantasy element of what Claremont achieved as a work of fiction.

[Will Evans]

As an evil guy “in disguise,” Hydra-Cap America should have tried to genocide the mutant race.

Giving mutants a threat to band together against, and then when Hydra-Cap is revealed as the false Cap, everyone who followed “Cap” realizes their internal bigotry on mutants.

[Bunch of Coconuts]

As an evil guy “in disguise,” Hydra-Cap America should have tried to genocide the mutant race.

Giving mutants a threat to band together against, and then when Hydra-Cap is revealed as the false Cap, everyone who followed “Cap” realizes their internal bigotry on mutants.

“Cap” didn’t have very many heroes on his side, though. Vision was compromised. Scarlet Witch was possessed (lawl...). I’m still not sure WTF was up with Thor.

Despite some peoples’ mis-givings regarding certain characters (which usually boils down to either editorial mandate or lack of communication between offices), I doubt Marvel ever wants to portray their heroic characters as outrightly bigoted toward any minority group, mutants included.

But being this is a sort of “wishlist” thread, which heroes would you have liked to damn forever?

[GodfatherIV]

1: Eventhough their bodies are cloned from genetic material, I think of the resurrected mutants on Krakoa as the "real deal".
Yes...it's not the very same bodies they came out of their mothers' wombs with years ago, but the majority of mutants/X-Men with the exception of a very few have had their bodies manipulated in some form or the other throughout x-history that the original/clone distinction is beyond moot.
Case in point: When Xavier was infected by a Brood Queen, the Shi'ar transferred his consciousness into a clone that was able to walk. From that point on...for all intents and purposes, that was/is the real Xavier and the X-Men and New Mutants saw him as such. They didn't differentiate that he was a clone. I'm not making that distinction, either.

2: I always thought (and still do) the Psylocke/Kwannon body-mind merge was an original and very interesting bit of plotting. While I understand this "woke" generation's fragile sensibilities on the matters of ethnic erasure and cultural appropriation in the real world, I do greatly appreciate the sci-fi/fantasy element of what Claremont achieved as a work of fiction.

Especially agree with number 2

[Frobisher]

1: Eventhough their bodies are cloned from genetic material, I think of the resurrected mutants on Krakoa as the "real deal".
Yes...it's not the very same bodies they came out of their mothers' wombs with years ago, but the majority of mutants/X-Men with the exception of a very few have had their bodies manipulated in some form or the other throughout x-history that the original/clone distinction is beyond moot.
Case in point: When Xavier was infected by a Brood Queen, the Shi'ar transferred his consciousness into a clone that was able to walk. From that point on...for all intents and purposes, that was/is the real Xavier and the X-Men and New Mutants saw him as such. They didn't differentiate that he was a clone. I'm not making that distinction, either.

The idea of an "original" body is already an incredibly sketchy idea - every single atom in the human body gets replaced approximately every five years, including bones, so even a body with continuity back to birth is not physically the same matter. In Star Trek, every time they use the transporter their atoms are dissembled and their body is created out of different atoms at the other end, which opened the horrific possibility that actually the characters might die each time they use it - and this idea was eventually explored with the failure that resulted in the transporter clone Thomas Riker when the transporter did not destroy the original body.

The linking concept behind personhood is that somehow the human soul or consciousness is somehow separate from the material world and that is where continuity really resides, but even that falls apart a bit under scrutiny. For instance - how do you know your consciousness has continuity back to birth? You can recall memories back from your childhood, but those are just electrochemical patterns in your material brain. Recalling those memories would be no different if your consciousness had really lived them, or whether your entire body and its memories were somehow spontaneously generated one second ago.

[Ambaryerno]

...and this idea was eventually explored with the failure that resulted in the transporter clone Thomas Riker when the transporter did not destroy the original body.

That is LITERALLY NOT what happened. At all. Riker beamed out like he was supposed to. The problem is the funky atmospheric conditions on the planet caused part of the beam to reflect back to the surface during transport and for a duplicate Riker to rematerialize there.

[Alan2099]

As an evil guy “in disguise,” Hydra-Cap America should have tried to genocide the mutant race.

Giving mutants a threat to band together against, and then when Hydra-Cap is revealed as the false Cap, everyone who followed “Cap” realizes their internal bigotry on mutants.

Wait... you want more heroes to be bigots? Why?

[chief12d]

Wait... you want more heroes to be bigots? Why?

Probably a victim complex that’s been fostered by the X-office insinuating that any hero that doesn’t spend all their time protecting or bowing to mutant interests is a bigot.

[Grunty]

1: Eventhough their bodies are cloned from genetic material, I think of the resurrected mutants on Krakoa as the "real deal".
Yes...it's not the very same bodies they came out of their mothers' wombs with years ago, but the majority of mutants/X-Men with the exception of a very few have had their bodies manipulated in some form or the other throughout x-history that the original/clone distinction is beyond moot.

Despite not being a fan of the people replication system Hickman set up with Dawn of X (i personaly find it unsustainable as narrative device in the long run), i have to say that's a pretty fair assessment of the "realness" of the replicated characters.

With the body and the memories being said to be "perfect" replicas of the originals, each of the people created from the process would have a good basis to consider themself a continuation of the original (or in some cases previous replicas) and therefor the new real deal.
Even when the metaphysical soul is considered, it could be argued that the moment these replicas develop their own memories, they develop their own souls too and therefor become real people in their own right, based on the originals.

However the whole setup still contains several potential trappings which could end up dooming it in story down the line, while also making characters doubt their realness.

1. There is no direct mental continuation from the originals/previous version.

With direct continuation i mean that a mind or set of memories goes directly from the original into the new body without a loss of memories or stop.

Essentialy like using "cut and paste" to transfer a set of data from one computer to the other without leaving the original behind.
However the system used in Dawn of X is not transfering minds/memories directly from the original/previous body to the new one. Instead it's "copy and paste", which leaves behind at least 2 versions all the time.

Which means there is always a cut off point or stop with the person that is replicated. The original that died had a different mind, as small as it might have been (a few seconds of additional memories), from the new one. The continuation is broken.
Now by itself this is doesn't have to doom the whole thing. But repeated replications in short time could potentialy lead to a percieved loss of identity in the characters.

2. The dead are dead, they aren't comming back (by themself).

With the replicas being made via downloading their memories from the cerebro storage into a new body, it means that the original or previous version died for real (the above mentioned contiuation is broken).
No mind was transfered from Body A to B directly. This means that of each person that died, something should remain by the metaphysics laws of the marvel universe.

We saw this happening in the Empyre tie in where a replicated mutant is talking to the re-animated zombie version of his original self. Which confirms that they leave some form of spirit behind when they die. Something which doesn't move on to the new body and mind. Where both handled it pretty well though

3. The high risk of manipulation.

Pretty simple. The whole thing depends heavily on trusting Xavier with the memories, Mister Sinister with the DNA samples and the whole system in general being free of tampering.

While the system might be well thought out and working like clockwork at the moment, it's in high risk of being potentialy manipulated by a person or group to suits their needs.
Once this happend, intentionaly or via manipulation by others, and is found out it seeds doubt. Doubt that can turn into rejection if not rebellion against the system.

4. The mutant path towards becoming "Post Humans".

While the Post Humans in Moira's Sixth Life were presented like something of a potential future danger to both regular humans (replacing them) and mutant humans (defeating them and putting them in an excibit), it feels to me like they aren't bound to only originates from the normal humans.

Mutants might just as easily be swayed towards following that path, with the Chimeras from the other lifes being evidence of such attempts.
We allready see X-men characters becoming desnsitized towards their own or others deaths, holding the potential to developing the same lack of care or apathy towards remaining in their original state of mind or body.

A few further steps and they could end up becoming Post Humans too and wanting to join the Phallanx into forming a dominion.

[Will Evans]

Wait... you want more heroes to be bigots? Why?

I guess I shouldn’t have said the heroes’ “internal bigotry” and said “internal fears” instead.

Though some would say, that there isn’t a difference.

[PrezValentine]

As an evil guy “in disguise,” Hydra-Cap America should have tried to genocide the mutant race.

Giving mutants a threat to band together against, and then when Hydra-Cap is revealed as the false Cap, everyone who followed “Cap” realizes their internal bigotry on mutants.

But he wanted to kill mutants. He just set New Tian up to keep Emma and Magneto out of his neck, but his intent was to take the territory back and kill the mutants there. He was just more direct with the inhumans and put them in concentration camps because the absence of the royals at the time made them weaker.

[Lapsus]

1: Eventhough their bodies are cloned from genetic material, I think of the resurrected mutants on Krakoa as the "real deal".
Yes...it's not the very same bodies they came out of their mothers' wombs with years ago, but the majority of mutants/X-Men with the exception of a very few have had their bodies manipulated in some form or the other throughout x-history that the original/clone distinction is beyond moot.
Case in point: When Xavier was infected by a Brood Queen, the Shi'ar transferred his consciousness into a clone that was able to walk. From that point on...for all intents and purposes, that was/is the real Xavier and the X-Men and New Mutants saw him as such. They didn't differentiate that he was a clone. I'm not making that distinction, either.

I agree with this in the general sense and that trying to enforce the idea that every single x-men needs his "original" body after nearly 6 decades with some whacky stories in the middle is a bit unrealistic.

My only issue is the frequency of them which gives the feeling of body factory or meat shields, this leads to the "clone vibe" even if they are not real clones.

They should toned down the deaths.

[Sutekh]

1: Eventhough their bodies are cloned from genetic material, I think of the resurrected mutants on Krakoa as the "real deal".
Yes...it's not the very same bodies they came out of their mothers' wombs with years ago, but the majority of mutants/X-Men with the exception of a very few have had their bodies manipulated in some form or the other throughout x-history that the original/clone distinction is beyond moot.
Case in point: When Xavier was infected by a Brood Queen, the Shi'ar transferred his consciousness into a clone that was able to walk. From that point on...for all intents and purposes, that was/is the real Xavier and the X-Men and New Mutants saw him as such. They didn't differentiate that he was a clone. I'm not making that distinction, either.

In that case, Xavier's consciousness was transferred from one body to the next. *He* continued, regardless of what shiny new meat-tuxedo he was wearing.

In the case of Krakoa, the person is dying, and a stored copy of their memories are being downloaded into the new body. It's not the body that matters, it's the person's mind/soul that matters, and that's gone.

*If* there was some mechanism by which every mutant invited to Krakoa was spiritually bonded *to* Krakoa, via that psychic link it uses to feed on them, so that, when they died, their consciousness fled back to Krakoa and a new body was regrown for them, then they'd be a continuance of the actual person. (Or some other mechanism cleverer than that brain-fart I just crapped out.)

Right now, they are just copies *of their minds* (who cares about their bodies, plenty of us have replacement bits these days), and since they are lacking any memories from their last 'backup' to the time of their deaths (as well as any information that might have been shielded from Xavier, who has been unable to fully read the minds of Wolverine, Psylocke, Rogue, Magneto, Gambit, Ilyanna, etc. in the past, so that any copies he made of their minds *would be full of gaps*), not even complete copies!

[Havok83]

Right now, they are just copies *of their minds* (who cares about their bodies, plenty of us have replacement bits these days), and since they are lacking any memories from their last 'backup' to the time of their deaths (as well as any information that might have been shielded from Xavier, who has been unable to fully read the minds of Wolverine, Psylocke, Rogue, Magneto, Gambit, Ilyanna, etc. in the past, so that any copies he made of their minds *would be full of gaps*), not even complete copies!

As far as that last statement for all intents and purposes, Xavier copies and transfers all up to date memories to the new body. In the case of Wolverine before, while Xavier may not have been able to fully read him before, the information is still there. Think of it like an encrypted folder

Magneto only has his telepathic resistance when he has his helmet. For him and other mutants that have some form of resistance its more likely that Xavier works directly with them once a week to back them up. For example, Magneto will take off his helmet, specifically to be copied. Illyana will lower her defenses for the same purpose and so on.. In extreme cases if Cerebro is absolutely unable to back up a mutant, then they are screwed, but that hasnt been anything thats been addressed yet