Your Unpopular/Controversial Opinions on the X-Universe

[Hizashi]

He's not. Rightclops happened in Bendis run and in universe he was hated. He was constantly called out and his decisions put into question. He was the underdog, flawed and at times messed up but he strived to do better. He relied heavily on his team to support him and his plans and he supported them and their growth. His portrayal here was a natural progression of what had just come before for him and the line

Kitty was a Mary Sue who could do no wrong. She was never called out for anything bc she was written as the perfect leader with few flaws. Her team existed only to make her look good as their intelligence and abilities were severely downplayed. Kitty in Gold did not feel like a natural progression for anyone. She came from nowhere after being absent from the line in years and was handed off leadership at the expense of those around her

The only thing the two share in common is that they led their respective teams

I mean, yeah, that's what I figured and I agree with you completely, but I wanted to see how that point of view could be defended.

[Hizashi]

how do you explain teen Jean only showed up after they decided to end the pair Emma/Scott?

Also how do you explain that Jean bashing was based on Morrison's run? before it nobody thought that she held him and she wasn't good enough for him. These thought didn't formedout of thin air.

Marvel didn't bring Tean in because they broke up Scemma, Bendis had an idea for the characters and he inherited Uncanny after Scemma had called it quits (although as usual, Bendis spun his wheels and then the TDO5 massively overstayed their welcome). You're connecting dots that aren't related to each other.

I bet you for every instance of Jean-bashing there was Jean-worshipping, the attitudes weren't one-sided. As for the perceptions about Jean, when you have one vocal group bashing a character, a portion of fans of that character will overcorrect in their response.

Morrison clearly misunderstood what breaking up the iconic romance between Scott and Jean actually meant, and especially what a terrible means it was to do so with a telepathic affair — and then kill off Jean? Yikes.

[SiegePerilous02]

I read it and it was one sided. Only Scott talked about his problem with the relationship. If it wasn't one sided readers could never accept Emma and Scott pairing

I've also read it. Multiple times in fact.

It was not one sided.

[Rang10]

I've also read it. Multiple times in fact.

It was not one sided.

So where is all the pages of Jean talking about the relationship

[ExodusCloak]

So where is all the pages of Jean talking about the relationship

In New X-Men 116 when Cassandra Nova goes on tv. When they're in bed. To Beast in an earlier issue, in the Annual, in Uncanny X-Men when her and Wolverine kids after being attacked by a reality earlier. In the forest when she is rebuffed by Wolverine.

Jean channelled her energy far more constructively in Morrison's run by going on that World Tour wirh Fantonmex. Morrison deconstructed Scott which resulted in him being pieced together by Whedons which paved the way for Messiah Complex assertive Scott and eventually Rightclops when Editorial mandate backfired on the Avengers

Cyclops was the most hated character on these boards until Editorial United everyone against Wanda and the Avengers and then the Inhumans

[Rang10]

In New X-Men 116 when Cassandra Nova goes on tv. When they're in bed. To Beast in an earlier issue, in the Annual, in Uncanny X-Men when her and Wolverine kids after being attacked by a reality earlier. In the forest when she is rebuffed by Wolverine.

Jean channelled her energy far more constructively in Morrison's run by going on that World Tour wirh Fantonmex. Morrison deconstructed Scott which resulted in him being pieced together by Whedons which paved the way for Messiah Complex assertive Scott and eventually Rightclops when Editorial mandate backfired on the Avengers

She just says that she misses Scott and that is it. Now Scott got lot more depth and reasons to cheat on Jean.

Marvel didn't bring Tean in because they broke up Scemma, Bendis had an idea for the characters and he inherited Uncanny after Scemma had called it quits (although as usual, Bendis spun his wheels and then the TDO5 massively overstayed their welcome). You're connecting dots that aren't related to each other.

I bet you for every instance of Jean-bashing there was Jean-worshipping, the attitudes weren't one-sided. As for the perceptions about Jean, when you have one vocal group bashing a character, a portion of fans of that character will overcorrect in their response.

Morrison clearly misunderstood what breaking up the iconic romance between Scott and Jean actually meant, and especially what a terrible means it was to do so with a telepathic affair — and then kill off Jean? Yikes.

I think it was ore coincidence, but ending Scemma opened to adult return years later.

There was a lot more of Jean bashing, calling her a cow, Scott saying he doesn't love her, that he doesn't need her, tht she couldn't control Phoenix (it was fake, she controlled it without problems on Morrison run and on dark phoenix until she got mind raped), that she always die.
I think it all helped Jean get screwed and lose the Phoenix.

This one we can agree, morrison screw up badly doing the telepathic affair and killing Jean.

[ExodusCloak]

She just says that she misses Scott and that is it. Now Scott got lot more depth and reasons to cheat on Jean.



I think it was ore coincidence, but ending Scemma opened to adult return years later.

There was a lot more of Jean bashing, calling her a cow, Scott saying he doesn't love her, that he doesn't need her, tht she couldn't control Phoenix (it was fake, she controlled it without problems on Morrison run and on dark phoenix until she got mind raped), that she always die.
I think it all helped Jean get screwed and lose the Phoenix.

This one we can agree, morrison screw up badly doing the telepathic affair and killing Jean.

Jean said that Scott is shutting her out, that he doesn't want to talk to her and that they haven't touched each other in months. And she's drawn to Wolverine as its exciting. She's growing and goes on that World Tour. She's growing as are her powers. And she's leaving Scott behind. In essence she out grew him as she out grew her humanity

Jean was idolized and worshipped in death by everyone but Emma. Jean was dead a long time sure. So was Thunderbird and Banshee. And that was bad for her fans. It wasn't a vendetta against a fictional character. Some people just liked the not so wholesome dynamic of Scemma. Emma took a back seat to Scott from 2007

That comes with every medium. Especially amongst female characters for some reason where fans will pit Prudence vs Paige or Misty vs May vs Dawn vs Serena vs Iris against each other

Anyway Hickman truly found a way to dispel all the toxic begrudgery with the polyamorous relationships

[Rang10]

Jean said that Scott is shutting her out, that he doesn't want to talk to her and that they haven't touched each other in months. And she's drawn to Wolverine as its exciting. She's growing and goes on that World Tour. She's growing as are her powers. And she's leaving Scott behind. In essence she out grew him as she out grew her humanity

Jean was idolized and worshipped in death by everyone but Emma. Jean was dead a long time sure. Some people just liked the not so wholesome dynamic of Scemma.

That comes with every medium. Especially amongst female characters for some reason where fans will pit Prudence vs Paige or Misty vs May vs Dawn vs Serena vs Iris against each other

Exactly what I said and i didn't like that Morrison made Jean aloof, that was nosense.

wholesome Scemma? they where kissing on Jean's grave, that is the opposite of wholesome and tall the name calling from Emma to Jean that is also not wholesome.
I don't remember any worshipping beyond Wolverine. She was just remembered by the good she did some few times, that wasn't worship



============
Still related to Jean I think Phoenix should return to her and be made as part of Jean like it was originally intention.

[ExodusCloak]

Exactly what I said and i didn't like that Morrison made Jean aloof, that was nosense.

wholesome Scemma? they where kissing on Jean's grave, that is the opposite of wholesome and tall the name calling from Emma to Jean that is also not wholesome.
I don't remember any worshipping beyond Wolverine. She was just remembered by the good she did some few times, that wasn't worship

Read it again I said "not so wholesome"

From the FF4 in X4 to Psylocke to Kitty to Firestar to Storm. There wasn't an issue between 2004 to even 2011 where Emma was not reminded she was not Scott's first love. It worked both ways

[Havok83]

The characters moved on from Jean's death rather quickly. We never got to see a funeral and Rachel (and to a lesser degree Logan) were truly the only 2 characters that reacted to her loss. Everyone else just moved on. Claremont handled her memory and its impact on the X-men much better than the writers post-Morrison did. (Coincidentally, he's the one that wrote Rachel in that era)

[SiegePerilous02]

So where is all the pages of Jean talking about the relationship

In New X-Men 116 when Cassandra Nova goes on tv. When they're in bed. To Beast in an earlier issue, in the Annual, in Uncanny X-Men when her and Wolverine kids after being attacked by a reality earlier. In the forest when she is rebuffed by Wolverine.

Beat me to it. It's all right there on the page, Jean just has other stuff going on instead of just pining after her failed marriage.

Exactly what I said and i didn't like that Morrison made Jean aloof, that was nosense.

It's not nonsense. She was ascending to godhood, that was bound to impact how she views her Earthly relationships. She said she loved Scott and needed to let him go "because of what love says," because she was outgrowing him. It's also why she was able to forgive Emma, even though she was still pissed. She could literally see into Emma's soul. "Aloof" isn't an accurate reading of her mindset, IMO.

I also appreciated how her becoming Phoenix again was treated as a positive thing, as a response to the initial DPS. She repeatedly has to tell people "I'm not going crazy, I'm perfectly fine. There's nothing wrong with me feeling more alive and awake than I've ever been" and the narrative backs her up.

wholesome Scemma? they where kissing on Jean's grave, that is the opposite of wholesome and tall the name calling from Emma to Jean that is also not wholesome.

ExodusCloak said they weren't wholesome, and that was part of the initial appeal to them as a couple.

Scott and Jean could come across as blandly wholesome. And I don't really put that down to the fault of either of the characters or the pairing, it should be much more interesting than it often comes across.

[Rang10]

The characters moved on from Jean's death rather quickly. We never got to see a funeral and Rachel (and to a lesser degree Logan) were truly the only 2 characters that reacted to her loss. Everyone else just moved on. Claremont handled her memory and its impact on the X-men much better than the writers post-Morrison did. (Coincidentally, he's the one that wrote Rachel in that era)

Yes, it was relaly quickly. Only now I see that they skipped the funeral, they really wanted Jean far gone

[Havok83]

Yes, it was relaly quickly. Only now I see that they skipped the funeral, they really wanted Jean far gone

Even Joseph got a memorial issue. Jean got none!

[Rang10]

Even Joseph got a memorial issue. Jean got none!

Wow the humiliation. At least some time after this, Logan got mad at Scott and named the School "Jean Grey".

[butterflykyss]

I'll be surprised if the pace actually kicks up.

How is Kitty in Gold like RightClops?

Its all in the name "rightclops." He was the de facto leader of the xmen stories were centered around him for years not just 26 or so issues as it was with kitty. The Xmen have always been more than one character but from Fraction up until he died in AvX the stories of mutantkind centered very much around him, whether it made sense to or not.

He's not. Rightclops happened in Bendis run and in universe he was hated. He was constantly called out and his decisions put into question. He was the underdog, flawed and at times messed up but he strived to do better. He relied heavily on his team to support him and his plans and he supported them and their growth. His portrayal here was a natural progression of what had just come before for him and the line

Kitty was a Mary Sue who could do no wrong. She was never called out for anything bc she was written as the perfect leader with few flaws. Her team existed only to make her look good as their intelligence and abilities were severely downplayed. Kitty in Gold did not feel like a natural progression for anyone. She came from nowhere after being absent from the line in years and was handed off leadership at the expense of those around her

The only thing the two share in common is that they led their respective teams



Coincidence? Teen Jean only existed bc Bendis wanted to write her and he came on right after AvX. Without him, the idea for the ANXMen wouldnt have happened

It is not about him being always right, even though the ironic thing in this discussion is we call him "rightclops" because many in the fandom assumed him to be right. I would say rightclops was far worse than kitty. When things like this occur you know you have entered cringe-worrthy territory: