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  1. #2671
    Fire and life incarnate! phoenixzero23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davetvs View Post
    That's literally not true.
    well, I remember a few threads this week about it (and a few like this one that are eventually derailed), I can't even count how many since I joined these boards, all centered around love drama. This love drama is discussed on here 24/7
    Almost nobody talks about anything else of this run. Or at least the discussion is absolutely insignificant compared to the love drama discussion.
    Last edited by phoenixzero23; 09-14-2019 at 08:55 PM.

  2. #2672
    Benefactor / Malefactor H-E-D's Avatar
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    There's more material evidence of other elements being remembered than what winds up on this forum. Like what winds up in the books.

  3. #2673
    The Best There Is Wolverine12's Avatar
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    The fridging and Morrison debate has run it's course in this thread. Move on to a new topic please, this thread is about more than just that one moment.
    You brought back Wolverine

    The CBR Community Standards a.k.a how to get along.

  4. #2674
    Spectacular Member ComeOnBunny's Avatar
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    My controversial opinion is that Storm is a terrible leader not only of the X-Men but terrible leader period. When she was leader of the Morlocks they got massacred, when she was Queen of Wakanda they got destroyed by Namor, when she was leader of the X-Men she decided to have Mutants run to limbo instead of destroying the Terrigen Cloud.

    I think that it is time for Surge's X-Men to shine in the X-Men core book and all the older X-Men members should take a back seat to the X-Men side books.
    Last edited by ComeOnBunny; 09-15-2019 at 12:30 AM.

  5. #2675
    Astonishing Member RachelGrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ComeOnBunny View Post
    My controversial opinion is that Storm is a terrible leader not only of the X-Men but terrible leader period. When she was leader of the Morlocks they got massacred, when she was Queen of Wakanda they got destroyed by Namor, when she was leader of the X-Men she decided to have Mutants run to limbo instead of destroying the Terrigen Cloud.

    I think that it is time for Surge's X-Men to shine in the X-Men core book and all the older X-Men members should take a back seat to the X-Men side books.
    You know I have loved Storm as a leader many times, but then I got to thinking about something that made me realize that all of Rachel's disdain for Storm's leadership actually has an origin.

    While Storm was leader of the X-Men, Logan stabbed Rachel in the stomach and gutted her to prevent Rachel from killing Selene. He confessed the attempted murder to Storm who did nothing more than admonish Logan and there was no other punishment of any kind. While Rachel was dying in Central Park trying desperately to keep her guts from bleeding out and was being stalked by both Selene and Spiral, the rest of the X-Men including Storm were whining about Rachel not helping them against the Hellfire Club and then Nimrod. Rachel even heard the whining in her own mind because she was listening as she was slowly dying. In Rachel's delirious state she was an easy mark for Spiral who weaved an illusion of Rachel's original parents Jean and Scott beckoning Rachel to join her on the staircase. Rachel was whisked away to Mojo world and turned into a hound again so that Mojo could do films about her 811 world with Rachel as a hound.

    Storm never organized the X-Men to find Rachel or save her. In fact they all acted like Rachel had betrayed them somehow and deserved whatever happened to her. It's not just Storm that was complicit in this, so was Kitty, Rogue, and Nightcrawler. Don't even get me started about Logan, he is nothing more than a child killer in this story who attempted to murder a kid when he could have just hit her over the head with his admantium fist and knock her unconscious and take her back to the X-Men.

    It's funny that I am torn, for Storm the Clairmont run was one of her times to shine as a leader, but at the same time she horribly failed as a leader to protect and defend the young girl, Rachel, who trusted her to have her back.

    If you think about all the repressed rage and anger that Rachel has held in over the years about always being treated like no one really gives a shit about her, it's no wonder Rachel was so angry at Storm during the Arkea run.

  6. #2676
    Spectacular Member ComeOnBunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RachelGrey View Post
    You know I have loved Storm as a leader many times, but then I got to thinking about something that made me realize that all of Rachel's disdain for Storm's leadership actually has an origin.

    While Storm was leader of the X-Men, Logan stabbed Rachel in the stomach and gutted her to prevent Rachel from killing Selene. He confessed the attempted murder to Storm who did nothing more than admonish Logan and there was no other punishment of any kind. While Rachel was dying in Central Park trying desperately to keep her guts from bleeding out and was being stalked by both Selene and Spiral, the rest of the X-Men including Storm were whining about Rachel not helping them against the Hellfire Club and then Nimrod. Rachel even heard the whining in her own mind because she was listening as she was slowly dying. In Rachel's delirious state she was an easy mark for Spiral who weaved an illusion of Rachel's original parents Jean and Scott beckoning Rachel to join her on the staircase. Rachel was whisked away to Mojo world and turned into a hound again so that Mojo could do films about her 811 world with Rachel as a hound.

    Storm never organized the X-Men to find Rachel or save her. In fact they all acted like Rachel had betrayed them somehow and deserved whatever happened to her. It's not just Storm that was complicit in this, so was Kitty, Rogue, and Nightcrawler. Don't even get me started about Logan, he is nothing more than a child killer in this story who attempted to murder a kid when he could have just hit her over the head with his admantium fist and knock her unconscious and take her back to the X-Men.

    It's funny that I am torn, for Storm the Clairmont run was one of her times to shine as a leader, but at the same time she horribly failed as a leader to protect and defend the young girl, Rachel, who trusted her to have her back.

    If you think about all the repressed rage and anger that Rachel has held in over the years about always being treated like no one really gives a shit about her, it's no wonder Rachel was so angry at Storm during the Arkea run.
    I vaguely remember that and being confused on how they could trust a teammate that would stab their allies to protect their enemy.

  7. #2677
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ComeOnBunny View Post
    My controversial opinion is that Storm is a terrible leader not only of the X-Men but terrible leader period. When she was leader of the Morlocks they got massacred, when she was Queen of Wakanda they got destroyed by Namor, when she was leader of the X-Men she decided to have Mutants run to limbo instead of destroying the Terrigen Cloud.

    I think that it is time for Surge's X-Men to shine in the X-Men core book and all the older X-Men members should take a back seat to the X-Men side books.
    Your example are bad,What is Storm supposed have done in Morlock Massacre(The X-men got smacked around by the marauders) and Namor flooding Wakanda? I don't count Terrigen Mist stuff because requires you believe that Mutant with powers to control weather couldn't control where clouds go and that is just bad writing. If you are holding those things against Storm then I can't imagine what you would think of Xavier, Magneto and Cyclops leadership

  8. #2678
    Spectacular Member ComeOnBunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Your example are bad,What is Storm supposed have done in Morlock Massacre(The X-men got smacked around by the marauders) and Namor flooding Wakanda? I don't count Terrigen Mist stuff because requires you believe that Mutant with powers to control weather couldn't control where clouds go and that is just bad writing. If you are holding those things against Storm then I can't imagine what you would think of Xavier, Magneto and Cyclops leadership
    Cyclops actually has a lot of impressive leadership feats post Messiah Complex alone so I cannot say much about him. I actually think Magneto and Xavier are trash leaders as well but Magneto survived at least 6 Genocides so at least his people were on the right side of the argument.

  9. #2679
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    *Everyone* who lived in Xavier's fancy mansion looks horrible for what went on with the Morlocks, not just Storm who 'led' them by ignoring them until they died and absolved her of that unwanted task.

    (Bad writing abounded there. Callisto knife-fought her way to leadership of the Morlocks. We'd been led to believe, until that point, that little Ororo had been little more than a sneak thief / pickpocket, on the streets of Cairo, but that knife-fight established that she not only knew how to knife-fight, but was *better at it than someone who did it regularly.* Did little Ororo put in 10,000 hours becoming an expert at knife-fighting on the streets of Cairo as a child? Exactly how many tourists did she shiv and leave bleeding out in alleys during her childhood to pick up these skills she used on Callisto, and gosh, does that *completely* change how we think of her, that our sweet Ororo has a trail of bodies in her past that we just never really talk about? 'Cause regardless of what the writing *intended,* that's what it implied. She didn't learn to out-knife-fight an experienced knife-fighter by magic, after all, and the text boxes made it clear that this wasn't blind luck, that Ororo *had learned to gut people* as a child on the streets of Cairo...)

    And then to compound the bad writing, Ororo takes Callisto's jacket, the symbol of rulership, but absolutely none of the responsibility that goes with it, leaving the Morlocks to fend for themselves. Better written, whichever X-Man made the challenge would have been someone more suited to knife-fighting gut-stabbing stuff (like Wolverine) and then *left the book for awhile* to be 'leader of the Morlocks' (until such a time as the Marauders show up, and Logan survives with a handful of stragglers he got out of the tunnels after getting shot, clawed up, harpooned, scrambled, etc. trying to fight them off. The 'X-Man who leads the Morlocks' ends up looking like he actually gave a flying crap about these mutants, and was willing to fight for them, and was simply overwhelmed.

    It wouldn't be 'our leader went MIA to go live in a mansion, for, like, *years,* while we were stuck in the sewers eating rats and garbage, and we all got Massacred, and gosh, it sucks that this pile of our dead Morlock corpses makes her look like a bad leader...'

  10. #2680
    Spectacular Member ComeOnBunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    *Everyone* who lived in Xavier's fancy mansion looks horrible for what went on with the Morlocks, not just Storm who 'led' them by ignoring them until they died and absolved her of that unwanted task.

    (Bad writing abounded there. Callisto knife-fought her way to leadership of the Morlocks. We'd been led to believe, until that point, that little Ororo had been little more than a sneak thief / pickpocket, on the streets of Cairo, but that knife-fight established that she not only knew how to knife-fight, but was *better at it than someone who did it regularly.* Did little Ororo put in 10,000 hours becoming an expert at knife-fighting on the streets of Cairo as a child? Exactly how many tourists did she shiv and leave bleeding out in alleys during her childhood to pick up these skills she used on Callisto, and gosh, does that *completely* change how we think of her, that our sweet Ororo has a trail of bodies in her past that we just never really talk about? 'Cause regardless of what the writing *intended,* that's what it implied. She didn't learn to out-knife-fight an experienced knife-fighter by magic, after all, and the text boxes made it clear that this wasn't blind luck, that Ororo *had learned to gut people* as a child on the streets of Cairo...)

    And then to compound the bad writing, Ororo takes Callisto's jacket, the symbol of rulership, but absolutely none of the responsibility that goes with it, leaving the Morlocks to fend for themselves. Better written, whichever X-Man made the challenge would have been someone more suited to knife-fighting gut-stabbing stuff (like Wolverine) and then *left the book for awhile* to be 'leader of the Morlocks' (until such a time as the Marauders show up, and Logan survives with a handful of stragglers he got out of the tunnels after getting shot, clawed up, harpooned, scrambled, etc. trying to fight them off. The 'X-Man who leads the Morlocks' ends up looking like he actually gave a flying crap about these mutants, and was willing to fight for them, and was simply overwhelmed.

    It wouldn't be 'our leader went MIA to go live in a mansion, for, like, *years,* while we were stuck in the sewers eating rats and garbage, and we all got Massacred, and gosh, it sucks that this pile of our dead Morlock corpses makes her look like a bad leader...'
    You can call it bad writing or whatever you want but it is still a documented mark against her leadership. What leadership feats does she have that proves she is a competent leader?

  11. #2681
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ComeOnBunny View Post
    Cyclops actually has a lot of impressive leadership feats post Messiah Complex alone so I cannot say much about him.
    Where do you want to start with Cyclops, You want he had power to change the world and he decides to bully the world into change. Or that he put together most powerful team to intimidate the world to protect mutants. Who was in charge when kids bus got blown up ? I am not picking on Cyclops other than show that everyone who has been a leader of the X-men has been horror show at times by your standards. I mean Cyclops just got his whole team killed in space with his brilliant tactical leadership.Cyclops team lost quite a bit of people in Rosenbergs run as well. Cyclops has been field leader longer than anyone and based on what you are attributing to Storm as screwing up, Cyclops list will be massive as well.
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 09-15-2019 at 05:30 AM.

  12. #2682
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Your example are bad,What is Storm supposed have done in Morlock Massacre(The X-men got smacked around by the marauders) and Namor flooding Wakanda? I don't count Terrigen Mist stuff because requires you believe that Mutant with powers to control weather couldn't control where clouds go and that is just bad writing. If you are holding those things against Storm then I can't imagine what you would think of Xavier, Magneto and Cyclops leadership
    Thank you. All of those talking points require a level of mental gymnastics that doesn't paint ANY of the leaders in a good light. Not mention Storm wasn't queen of Wakanda during the Namor's flood because T'Challa wasn't the king. Storm should be held accountable for her leadership of the morlocks, absolutely. The Terrigen cloud was complete crap and it was clear that the editorial mandate was to have Storm fight with her hands tied behind her back. She wasn't allowed to flex politically, mutant power wise or personality wise. In the same breath that her leadership would be thrown under the bus, others would give Cyclops top marks across the board for everything from messiah complex to P5 for being nothing more than a watered down less impressive version of outback era Storm. Black women are the template. Storm proves it. People see how effortlessly she rises to the challenge and all of a sudden everyone has an opinion an thinks they can do better.

  13. #2683
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    *Everyone* who lived in Xavier's fancy mansion looks horrible for what went on with the Morlocks, not just Storm who 'led' them by ignoring them until they died and absolved her of that unwanted task.

    (Bad writing abounded there. Callisto knife-fought her way to leadership of the Morlocks. We'd been led to believe, until that point, that little Ororo had been little more than a sneak thief / pickpocket, on the streets of Cairo, but that knife-fight established that she not only knew how to knife-fight, but was *better at it than someone who did it regularly.* Did little Ororo put in 10,000 hours becoming an expert at knife-fighting on the streets of Cairo as a child? Exactly how many tourists did she shiv and leave bleeding out in alleys during her childhood to pick up these skills she used on Callisto, and gosh, does that *completely* change how we think of her, that our sweet Ororo has a trail of bodies in her past that we just never really talk about? 'Cause regardless of what the writing *intended,* that's what it implied. She didn't learn to out-knife-fight an experienced knife-fighter by magic, after all, and the text boxes made it clear that this wasn't blind luck, that Ororo *had learned to gut people* as a child on the streets of Cairo...)

    And then to compound the bad writing, Ororo takes Callisto's jacket, the symbol of rulership, but absolutely none of the responsibility that goes with it, leaving the Morlocks to fend for themselves. Better written, whichever X-Man made the challenge would have been someone more suited to knife-fighting gut-stabbing stuff (like Wolverine) and then *left the book for awhile* to be 'leader of the Morlocks' (until such a time as the Marauders show up, and Logan survives with a handful of stragglers he got out of the tunnels after getting shot, clawed up, harpooned, scrambled, etc. trying to fight them off. The 'X-Man who leads the Morlocks' ends up looking like he actually gave a flying crap about these mutants, and was willing to fight for them, and was simply overwhelmed.

    It wouldn't be 'our leader went MIA to go live in a mansion, for, like, *years,* while we were stuck in the sewers eating rats and garbage, and we all got Massacred, and gosh, it sucks that this pile of our dead Morlock corpses makes her look like a bad leader...'
    I just remembered that X-Men Evolution had Spyke join the Morlocks and actually commit to him being their protector.

    That must have been an awkward conversation for Ororo to have with his parents.

  14. #2684
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    I guess I like the story of HoXPoX more than I dislike it. But for a book with very little character work and concepts that we have honestly seen numerous times before, people have been overdramatically effusive with praise.

  15. #2685
    Astonishing Member PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    I guess I like the story of HoXPoX more than I dislike it. But for a book with very little character work and concepts that we have honestly seen numerous times before, people have been overdramatically effusive with praise.
    I think people are desperate for any positive change for the X-Men, since they've been the abused step-child of Marvel for several years now.
    "It is the truest mark of heroism: to give your life aware that those you save will never know."

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