Your Unpopular/Controversial Opinions on the X-Universe

[Android 17]

Agreed. It's gotten very stale now. Magneto and Rogue are the only two X-Villains whose redemptions ever felt earned to me, even if in Magneto's case, he could vacillate back and forth between sides. Rogue is the only one of the former villains I consider a true X-Man. I have zero interest in seeing Sabretooth, Mystique, Juggernaut, Frost, Frenzy, Shaw, Sinister, Exodus, Selene, Apocalypse, etc. all vie for X-Men membership when they all should be locked up for their crimes against humanity and even mutantkind. These people are not heroes and pretty much every major tragedy in the X-Men's lives occurred because of them.

Right on.

And that's another thing I don't like about this Krakoa era, how blurred the lines are. In the case of Mystique who has done treacherous things for close to a century, why the hell do they have heroes like Carol Danvers (of all people) in the promo art for her wedding to Destiny?

Just feels wrong, keep villains out of the X-Men and let them be villains.

[Sin Nick]

Jeff the Landshark deserves a spot on an X-team.

[whitecrown]

Right on.

And that's another thing I don't like about this Krakoa era, how blurred the lines are. In the case of Mystique who has done treacherous things for close to a century, why the hell do they have heroes like Carol Danvers (of all people) in the promo art for her wedding to Destiny?

Just feels wrong, keep villains out of the X-Men and let them be villains.

Another problem is that fans aren't accepting these villains or considering them redeemed so instead of associating them as X-Men, we're only associating the actual X-Men as being no better than the villains and complicit in accepting them. By blurring the lines, it's tainting the real team. I see some X-Fans defend this by claiming it's always been in the X-Men's nature to accept former villains and it's their thing. Well, technically it was the Avengers who started the trope of redeeming villains like Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, and Quicksilver. Stan Lee specifically said he thought it was noteworthy having these three reform and join so the Avengers should get credit first for this. And the X-Men only did it sparingly with Rogue and Magneto, but now it feels like a joke and that they go out of their way to offer membership to whoever's committed the most massacres and genocides. The more blood they have on their hands, the more entitled they are to the X-Men name!

I saw a lot of Carol fans pissed about her presence at Mystique's wedding and how Mystique has wronged her so many times and been responsible for so many deaths, but she's never once atoned or apologized.

[NK1988]

TAS Apocalypse was blessed with a singularly awesome voice that will stand forever as possibly the best villain voice in any X-cartoon ever.

But as these things go, flash over substance might be why he's so fondly remembered. It's not like he had any real interesting motivations or reasoning. He's just...well, a cartoon villain, in all senses of the term.

Evo Apoc was a tad better but where they really failed with him was giving him that awesome, distinct glowing pharaoh look. Then it just...gos away for no real reason and reveals him to be a generic-looking robot man. Don't get me wrong, Apoc can look pretty rad, but the initial design was so much more distinctive and they just abandoned it for no real reason.

[Android 17]

TAS Apocalypse was blessed with a singularly awesome voice that will stand forever as possibly the best villain voice in any X-cartoon ever.

"I am as far beyond mutants, as they are beyond YOU! I am ETERNAL!"

That is how you write for a damn villain lol.

[Zelena]

Agreed. It's gotten very stale now. Magneto and Rogue are the only two X-Villains whose redemptions ever felt earned to me, even if in Magneto's case, he could vacillate back and forth between sides. Rogue is the only one of the former villains I consider a true X-Man. I have zero interest in seeing Sabretooth, Mystique, Juggernaut, Frost, Frenzy, Shaw, Sinister, Exodus, Selene, Apocalypse, etc. all vie for X-Men membership when they all should be locked up for their crimes against humanity and even mutantkind. These people are not heroes and pretty much every major tragedy in the X-Men's lives occurred because of them.

Agreed. In the past, all former villains went through a phase of redemption: the X-men hadn’t been gentle with Rogue and raised eyebrows when Xavier invited Magneto to join them at their table. Past misdeeds weren’t brushed off so easily.

This era gives the impression that being a mutant is more important than being a good person. What connected the X-men to the rest of the world of their universe (and to the reader) is that they had the same system of values. Their difference (having wonderful powers) is less important than being like us, looking for the same things… I see past X-men stories as the celebration of fraternity…

And I see current X-men stories as the celebration of the difference. I suppose that it’s the current climate. It interests me less…

[whitecrown]

Agreed. In the past, all former villains went through a phase of redemption: the X-men hadn’t been gentle with Rogue and raised eyebrows when Xavier invited Magneto to join them at their table. Past misdeeds weren’t brushed off so easily.

People also forget that Rogue was not accepted easily. Storm and the rest of the X-Men basically all threatened to quit if Xavier let Rogue join the team. All the X-Men were deeply attached to Carol at that point and felt it was a grievous betrayal of their friend. It's interesting to note that even by the Outback X-Men era, despite Rogue having proven herself over and over to the entire team, there were still lingering feelings of mistrust and resentment. When Rogue was complaining about Carol taking over her body, Storm was very clear that Rogue had no one to blame but herself and had to live with the consequences of her actions. She would get no sympathy from the rest of the team.
For Storm especially, what Rogue did was abominable because Storm had her own experience with her body and agency being taken away during her body swap with Frost. People forget that Frost slept with Shaw in Storm's body and even smoked so they literally did everything they could to pollute her body and laugh about it. What they did was essentially rape and Storm likened it as the most unnatural violation of another human being.

This era gives the impression that being a mutant is more important than being a good person. What connected the X-men to the rest of the world of their universe (and to the reader) is that they had the same system of values. Their difference (having wonderful powers) is less important than being like us, looking for the same things… I see past X-men stories as the celebration of fraternity…

And I see current X-men stories as the celebration of the difference. I suppose that it’s the current climate. It interests me less…

I get that vibe too and it feels very antiquated and almost racist in its message that everything is forgiven as long as you're the right type of person. Only one little gene matters in terms of commonality and what type of person you are means nothing. And mutants should only associate with other mutants, even kidnap mutant children from human parents because those "flatscans" have no right to their children then. I can see why so many long-time X-Men fans and creators have repudiated this entire era as going against everything the X-Men ever believed in.

[marhawkman]

TAS Apocalypse was blessed with a singularly awesome voice that will stand forever as possibly the best villain voice in any X-cartoon ever.

But as these things go, flash over substance might be why he's so fondly remembered. It's not like he had any real interesting motivations or reasoning. He's just...well, a cartoon villain, in all senses of the term.

Evo Apoc was a tad better but where they really failed with him was giving him that awesome, distinct glowing pharaoh look. Then it just...gos away for no real reason and reveals him to be a generic-looking robot man. Don't get me wrong, Apoc can look pretty rad, but the initial design was so much more distinctive and they just abandoned it for no real reason.

Apoccy's TAS motivations were a bit downplayed, but he had some serious plans and even character development. Like the Sisyphus monologue.... that scared the --- out of CABLE!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW-96dljccQ

[marhawkman]

Agreed. In the past, all former villains went through a phase of redemption: the X-men hadn’t been gentle with Rogue and raised eyebrows when Xavier invited Magneto to join them at their table. Past misdeeds weren’t brushed off so easily.

This era gives the impression that being a mutant is more important than being a good person. What connected the X-men to the rest of the world of their universe (and to the reader) is that they had the same system of values. Their difference (having wonderful powers) is less important than being like us, looking for the same things… I see past X-men stories as the celebration of fraternity…

And I see current X-men stories as the celebration of the difference. I suppose that it’s the current climate. It interests me less…

To me, the biggest thing to remember when writing morally complicated characters... there's a HUGE difference between morally grey and morally plaid. Emma's case, classic Emma was a character that didn't stick to being good or bad. But it's not grey, it's a mix of black and white. And in Emma's case.... yeah, she's been written as a "good guy" for years, but that wasn't a switch getting flipped overnight.

So let's look at the list:
Frost, Shaw, Selene, Apocalypse - none of them started out as being pro-Mutant. They just liked having people with powers. People regularly forget, but not all the Horsemen ARE Mutants. Selene and Shaw are in it for their own personal ambitions. So, it doesn't make ANY sense for them to be on board for the idea of a "Mutants-only" club. At best they'd play along so they have access in case you have stuff to steal. Which... is pretty much what they did. They just pursue their own agenda and you're helping them.

Juggernaut isn't a Mutant, or wasn't? He was one of those villains who had a personal grudge... and took it WAY too far....and that was his sole motive once upon a time.

Frenzy is a unique one on this list. She's not really in the group who "likes" killing... but... she never had any real qualms against it. She wasn't a Horseman... but she DID work for Apoccy.

Exodus is kinda in the "bad guys who have a good motive" group. his core motive for what he does... isn't selfish.

Mystique, yeah.... she's just... the classic in it for myself type.

Sabretooth, Sinister, in some alternate timeline they are less evil, but the main timeline? NOPE!!!!

[NK1988]

People also forget that Rogue was not accepted easily. Storm and the rest of the X-Men basically all threatened to quit if Xavier let Rogue join the team. All the X-Men were deeply attached to Carol at that point and felt it was a grievous betrayal of their friend. It's interesting to note that even by the Outback X-Men era, despite Rogue having proven herself over and over to the entire team, there were still lingering feelings of mistrust and resentment. When Rogue was complaining about Carol taking over her body, Storm was very clear that Rogue had no one to blame but herself and had to live with the consequences of her actions. She would get no sympathy from the rest of the team.
For Storm especially, what Rogue did was abominable because Storm had her own experience with her body and agency being taken away during her body swap with Frost. People forget that Frost slept with Shaw in Storm's body and even smoked so they literally did everything they could to pollute her body and laugh about it. What they did was essentially rape and Storm likened it as the most unnatural violation of another human being.




I get that vibe too and it feels very antiquated and almost racist in its message that everything is forgiven as long as you're the right type of person. Only one little gene matters in terms of commonality and what type of person you are means nothing. And mutants should only associate with other mutants, even kidnap mutant children from human parents because those "flatscans" have no right to their children then. I can see why so many long-time X-Men fans and creators have repudiated this entire era as going against everything the X-Men ever believed in.

I can't say what will happen later but here before Gala n 2021, in the (rather awful) Children of the Atom series, they flatly refuse to force any (supposed) mutant kids to come to Krakoa, even as those kids are running around playing superhero. In Cable's series, they return all the kidnapped mutant babies to their parents who as far as I can tell did not live on Krakoa. I've seen no abduction of mutant children from human parents or anything, literally the opposite.

Also what type of person you are definitely matters. Speaking of flatscans, in SWORD #5, it's all about mocking and not using an untrustworthy snake like Fabian Cortez - no matter how valuable his powerset - and the Council repudiates him when he uses the anti-human slur.