Your Unpopular/Controversial Opinions on the X-Universe

[jwatson]

Well... you like the change.... for your own reasons. However, can you explain how it's a good thing outside of that? Yeah "How does it make the character better?" but with none of the "it's good because representation" arguments.

For reasons that have already been stated, I think it makes his story worse.

Depends on perspective of the person reading the story. For instance people in the real world have been questioning if Bobby was gay or not for years. That is a fact. So if we are questioning it in the real world surely the other characters, even if we aren't hearing their thoughts or reading it must be thinking "there is something there but i'm not quite sure what." But now we know what it is. Some may agree with it and some may not but now you are sure of who he is and that makes others trust him more, that makes his leadership easier to not question and in that way it can make his story better. Anyone being authentic should make their story better it's on other people how they feel about that.

[marhawkman]

Depends on perspective of the person reading the story. For instance people in the real world have been questioning if Bobby was gay or not for years. That is a fact. So if we are questioning it in the real world surely the other characters, even if we aren't hearing their thoughts or reading it must be thinking "there is something there but i'm not quite sure what." But now we know what it is. Some may agree with it and some may not but now you are sure of who he is and that makes others trust him more, that makes his leadership easier to not question and in that way it can make his story better. Anyone being authentic should make their story better it's on other people how they feel about that.

Well that's one interpretation..... But.... it's only one way to look at it.

[cranger]

Nonsense- first of all, most of those were long before Alonso took over, and at least in some cases against editorial policy, like the Cloud thing when Shooter was in charge. Second, you can't spend years denying there are hints and subtext that Bobby is gay, but when that is finally made clear, say there was never anything there and Iceman being outed is a complete coincidence. You're just too proud to admit you were wrong.

You can't say editorial was against it (meaning they considered him straight) and that Axel and Bendis did not know there was any intent, and then act like they were just 'clearing the air'. Is it convenient that people often made gay jokes about out of context panels, sure if it helps you justify it, but you should not need to justify it, right?

[Hizashi]

I did not mean anything I mentioned to be convincing, just to further the topic as was shown in your reply. We can look at things such as a villainous character, someone who's being a villain is the point of the character, like Sabretooth or Magneto, and suddenly, in some manner, portray them as a hero, a good person even, and can look at that and think about whether that is actually the same character. Or, is this a new character now, as you really can't tell the same stories that were once told about them. Although sometimes these characters are reverted, with varying degrees of acceptance, to their villain status, even then the character will still be different and in the case of Magneto people will always push for them to be seen as a hero. Otherwise the reader will start to complain about regression. Obviously Bobby is different in the sense that people will see it as erasure, and trying to imagine a portrayal that is based on his original stories is not exactly a path that will yield much fair discussion, but if you rebooted the X-Men back to beginning, does telling that story now with Bobby as gay, out or not, change enough or anything that was essential to his role or the team as a whole?

edit: I want to add that in many ways I see things now as new versions of characters. Despite the appearance of continuity and the ownership being in the same hands, I don't find the new takes on characters to really have any more connection to the stories in the 60s than any Disney movie has to a centuries old fairy tale.

Gotcha, sorry for the misunderstanding. Yeah, it's an interesting thing to consider, and I'll reiterate that I do think there are certain characteristics intrinsic to a given character. I think what makes a large change work is careful planning and pacing it through a characters history organically.

The situation with Bobby, as far as I can tell, doesn't necessarily deal with an intrinsic characteristic, unless his perpetual ladies man archetype counts for some; however, sexual orientation is a pretty big deal to us isn't it? A change like that is not at all like taking Batman's money away or Superman's powers. The change to Bobby's character was more significant, I don't think anyone can dispute that.

[Hizashi]

Scott NOW IS BISEX with Wolverine . By hickman

A development which I vehemently disagree with.

[Hizashi]

Why would we count the animated series in discussions of 616 Bobby…

At the end of the day not one person has been able to describe to me what their actual issue is, outside of “the change is FORCED.” That’s not an actual reason. Bobby’s personality and temperament has been pretty consistent and he has the same story potential that he did before. Again I would understand if you were really invested in one of Bobby’s hetero relationships, but no one here seems to be and they were pretty much all in the dirt when he came out.

I’ll also note that I was very against the way that Bendis did it and that it seemed like he did for the sake of leaving a permanent mark on the franchise. However in the long-term I don’t think it’s “damaged” the character.

I'll freely admit that I'm more concerned about the big picture, as while I like Bobby he isn't a favorite character of mine. I absolutely agree with your last point, and I think that's potentially where the character was damaged. I think we have a portion of the audience who picked up on the hints left behind piecemeal by writers here and there and having anticipated this, celebrate the change despite how it was done; however, to the many fans who didn't see anything or thought it was an odd interpretation or whatever, what Bendis did could potentially have damaged the character beyond repair.

[Kingdom X]

Well... you like the change.... for your own reasons. However, can you explain how it's a good thing outside of that? Yeah "How does it make the character better?" but with none of the "it's good because representation" arguments.

For reasons that have already been stated, I think it makes his story worse.

Like I said earlier, Bobby isn’t a character I “needed” to be gay. My opinions on the character largely remained unchanged after he came out.

The only arguments that I’ve heard that made his story worse was that he can’t date Lorna anymore… and they hadn’t dated for years prior to the change and she always picked Havok over him (sorry Lorna fans). Otherwise he’s still the comic relief, omega-level, who doesn’t always live up to his full potential.

Bringing back the Reed example, FF stories would fundamentally change if he was revealed as gay. He’d have to break up with Sue which would adjust his relationships with her, Johnny, and the kids.

In comparison, Bobby’s coming out has virtually no impact on X-Men stories. The only thing that has changed is his love life which is such a small fraction of what we’re reading on a regular basis.

[davetvs]

At this point any pushback to Bobby coming out (beyond the sloppy way it was handled) is homophobia pure and simple. As has already been stated multiple times by multiple people across a span of years, there is enough subtext with the character going back decades that add credibility and validity to the evolution of his character in that way. As has already been stated multiple times by multiple people over a span of years, "heterosexual" men come out of the closet all the time. Some of these men have wives. Some of these men have girlfriends. Some of these men have biological children. A person living a lie tends to commit. Bobby's heterosexual relationships don't mean "he can't be gay" like a lot of you seem to want to believe. You should get out more and try to meet different types of people because your understanding of human experience and behavior is incredibly limited.

[Saturius]

I'm not an Iceman fan. Were the hints people are referring to always intended to insinuate his orientation by the people who wrote them? I think original intent plays a significant part in whether he was meant to be gay or not. Ultimately it doesn't matter because he is gay now. But we have seen in the past where writers clearly had intentional subtext about orientation when they couldn't outright come and say it aloud(Mystique and Destiny, Shatterstar, Yukio etc.) If the writers of Iceman in these instances never even had that in mind, I would say it's disingenuous to refer to them as always having been hints about orientation vs just them being coincidental or interpreted in a different way. Again, it ultimately doesn't matter cause Iceman has and is a gay male. But I could see how some would feel like it came out the blue and be miffed that others are telling them they just missed signs that may or may not have even been "real" to begin with I guess.

[jwatson]

Well that's one interpretation..... But.... it's only one way to look at it.

It's the only way to look at it. It doesn't matter whether one thinks he is gay or not the choice wasn't in their hands just like if you had a best friend who all of a sudden came out after you knew each other since the both of you were two years old and you had no idea. The only choice you get is how you deal with it and whether you think it will make his life horrible or good is inconsequential (and says more about the person judging than the person who came out) because it's his life. Same concept, other people (Writers) control bobby as he has no free will and in canon he is a gay man. Some like it, some don't. Theres really not much middle ground aside from personal feelings which again in the grand scheme shouldn't matter. Life will be only as horrible for a gay person (excluding themselves for this example)as the people around them make it, same with everyone else.

edit: Also of note some people never come out at all and don't have the benefit of meeting a time displaced version of themselves to say "get ya life."

[JungleBatman]

I hope the MCU makes mutants work properly.

[Ambaryerno]

At this point any pushback to Bobby coming out (beyond the sloppy way it was handled) is homophobia pure and simple. As has already been stated multiple times by multiple people across a span of years, there is enough subtext with the character going back decades that add credibility and validity to the evolution of his character in that way. As has already been stated multiple times by multiple people over a span of years, "heterosexual" men come out of the closet all the time. Some of these men have wives. Some of these men have girlfriends. Some of these men have biological children. A person living a lie tends to commit. Bobby's heterosexual relationships don't mean "he can't be gay" like a lot of you seem to want to believe. You should get out more and try to meet different types of people because your understanding of human experience and behavior is incredibly limited.

Yes, this is something that happens in real life.

However this is fiction land, where everything is, ostensibly, driven by narrative development. While people IRL can and do make snap decisions that may run contrary to their established character, (often as a matter of perception since we're often not privy to the private thought processes behind it) in fiction these same sort of snap decisions with no narrative groundwork and development to support it is bad writing. In fiction, characterization needs to be consistent, and change must be DRIVEN, not just declared to be, or you risk losing the audience. Comics are no different; Just how many criticisms have we seen about characters being written OOC after sudden personality shifts in the past?

Subtext is very dangerous to use as this sort of groundwork, precisely BECAUSE not everyone sees it. Especially once the context get removed.

And blanket accusing everyone who objects to the development of being homophobic is NOT constructive, or even correct.

[Havok83]

I hope the MCU makes mutants work properly.

How is this unpopular or controversial? I think everyone wants that

[Rift]

I actually don't want the mutants in the MCU at all. I have absolutely no faith in the MCU to do them justice. But I won't be getting what I want, so :v

[Hizashi]

I actually don't want the mutants in the MCU at all. I have absolutely no faith in the MCU to do them justice. But I won't be getting what I want, so :v

I have some trepidation as well.