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  1. #3841
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam-X View Post
    Well to be fair, Maddie was NEVER intended to be a clone of Jean in any single way... that came much, much later, when they decided to do X-FACTOR and needed an easy reason for Scott to leave... Jean alive... OK. But him just bailing on Maddie seems harsh. Oh. Let's just make her a clone of Jean.

    Effing horrible.
    That just makes it all so much worse.

    Also, I know this isn't a controversial opinion, but don't some of these writers, like, ever realize how bad some of these are? Like, Scott just getting with a woman who looks exactly like the love of his life and then ditching her when said love returns? And we're not supposed to despise him completely?

  2. #3842

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosebunse View Post
    That just makes it all so much worse.

    Also, I know this isn't a controversial opinion, but don't some of these writers, like, ever realize how bad some of these are? Like, Scott just getting with a woman who looks exactly like the love of his life and then ditching her when said love returns? And we're not supposed to despise him completely?
    If you've never read the end part (the interview) in Phoenix: The Untold Story... you should. Clairemont brought this whole point up (of Scott leaving because Jean had been resurrected). The story of Scott and Maddie had an interesting dynamic (before the whole clone thing) because - yeah, it was weird. But we SAW Scott struggling with it. Wondering if she was Jean. And in the end, actually falls in love with Maddie not because of who she looks like, but who she is (I want to say this was around UXM 176 with the giant octopus thing)
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  3. #3843

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    Quote Originally Posted by ohsnapulon5000 View Post
    Sunspot should always be colored dark as hell because his power is a literal melanin metaphor fantasy.
    I saw an article today about fungus that live in Chernobyl and are eating the radiation by creating large amounts of melanin and converting the radiation into chemical power for them to metabolism and I thought of Sunspot's power.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...adly-rays.html
    Let the flames destroy all but that which is pure and true!

  4. #3844
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    House of X and Powers of X were great, but X-Men, X-Force, and Fallen Angels have been huge turds in the punchbowl.

    - No continuity. X-Men 1-6 jumps around from issue to issue. (Family reunion on the moon, to 2 islands slamming together, to Golden Girls plant show, to Davos, to the vault.)

    - No continuity between characters across titles. (Apocalypse is a sorcerer in X-Caliber, and a diplomat in X-Men visiting Davos? Kitty is dead in Marauders, but is a part of the FF / XMen crossover? Marauders are operating in London, then Madripoor, then BACK to England to give XCaliber a ride to the lighthouse? X-23 is in Fallen Angels, but is now Wolverine in X-Men #5, but is now trapped in the vault? Sebastian Shaw is a POS in Marauders, but gets activated by Cyclops to handle the Golden Plant girls? Psylocke is in Fallen Angels AND Hellions?! You have 2478 mutants at a neverending rave, and you keep reusing the same ones?)

    - Where is Moira, and why doesn't she give a crap?

    - Where is Mystique? She would be slashing throats since Destiny hasn't been reincarnated.

    - NO BAD GUYS. Whoopdee $#!+. Some children are plotting and planning. Generic strike teams with military weapons for Cyclops and Gorgon to smash up. Generic military teams with chunks of Domino stitched onto them. Generic Russians (But they look super-ish) with power dampening power armor. Wow. Real creative.

    - No consequences for failure. Die? We'll bring you back! The mission in PoX/HoX to take out the mother mold; Why would Prof X shed one single, solitary tear? Why WOULDN'T your plan be to pack the spaceship full of powerful X-Men and PLAN on dying so you could do more to melt mothermold in the sun without worrying about an escape plan?

    - Congratulations on the reboot, Marvel. The X-Men roster is 2000+ mutants. You haven't developed ANYONE'S character arc. Your writers waste 2 issues of X-Force using "Kid Omega". Your writers across titles are not coordinating who is using "character X" so it doesn't conflict with another storyline. There is no conflict; no bad guys. Death is meaningless. (Prof X gets brought back in 1.5 issues? Nobody could write 2 pages to show how tough it might have been for Jean to work cerebro to reanimate him?)

    What. A. Turd. Of. A. Reboot.


    Hickman and All X-writers, you need to go back and read Uncanny X-men 225 - 280. It will show you how to craft a STORY and CHARACTER ARCs.

    Claremont: Fall of the Mutants. You had a good XMen roster and a team of bad guys to fight. XMen prevail, and get to escape the limelight. Inferno? You BUILT UP A STORY with Madeline Pryor, and her turn to evil. It tied in to the ENTIRE Marvel universe! The Reavers storyline? All XMen are scattered, dealing with very angry cyborgs. X-Tinction Agenda? A Whole COUNTRY vs the XMen. And, the story was used to bring all the scattered XMen back together. XFactor 68: Cyclops GIVES UP HIS SON to save him!

    Uncanny 273-277. You not only put the XMen front and center as a team, but continue to craft those relationships; Wolverine and Gambit are butting heads. Gambit and Jubilee fighting Gladiator. Forge and Banshee being the "seniors" on the team.

    The reboot started great, but turned in to,... I was going to say a turd, but it is more of an uncontrolled, un-throttled diarrhea explosion that you could pass through a porch screen. I've read better stories on the back of the tray liner at Burger King.

    Prove me wrong.

  5. #3845
    Astonishing Member From The Shadows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    Jean didn't went along with it, Scott left his wife and kid to play superhero. Jean said to him return to Maddie
    To be fair I remember Scott actually didn't just resume his romance with Jean right away. He was being standoffish and distant with Jean so much so I remember them fighting over it and Jean used her powers! This was an awful situation for all three involved and for Jean you have to imagine what it would be like to come back to life and the man who proposed to you just before you died is married to someone who looks just like you. I'm not saying what they did was right but I imagine making the right decision isn't easy here.

    And yes! Revealing Maddie to be Jean instead would have prevented a lot of awfulness.

  6. #3846
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armorfiend View Post
    No continuity. X-Men 1-6 jumps around from issue to issue. (Family reunion on the moon, to 2 islands slamming together, to Golden Girls plant show, to Davos, to the vault.)
    Actually that is called individual stories,There is continuity stuff from previous issue and other stories are talk about in the books. For example they talk about Xavier death in X-men. That is continuity it is clearly same world and same story


    Quote Originally Posted by Armorfiend View Post
    - No continuity between characters across titles. (Apocalypse is a sorcerer in X-Caliber, and a diplomat in X-Men visiting Davos? Kitty is dead in Marauders, but is a part of the FF / XMen crossover? Marauders are operating in London, then Madripoor, then BACK to England to give XCaliber a ride to the lighthouse? X-23 is in Fallen Angels, but is now Wolverine in X-Men #5, but is now trapped in the vault? Sebastian Shaw is a POS in Marauders, but gets activated by Cyclops to handle the Golden Plant girls? Psylocke is in Fallen Angels AND Hellions?
    You do realize that not all stories happen at the same in comics. Right. The story with Kitty in FF happens before or after the story in the marauders. The story with X-23 happen before or after Fallen angels. You know how silly it would be every creator had to tell story on that tight timescale. What happens when a book is late? Every other book has to be push back so the timeline stays together?

    It is because mistake with timelines are that things are loose. Beside Publishing each week,month shouldn't necessary determine the timeline. If I pick up Marauders trade what do I care about the other stories? There is more than one to read and not everyone is picking up everybook. Like me. Apparently you won't be picking every book now so you will appreciate that your books aren't connected and you have to pick everybook monthly to get things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Armorfiend View Post
    - Where is Moira, and why doesn't she give a crap?

    - Where is Mystique? She would be slashing throats since Destiny hasn't been reincarnated.
    Every plotline of story that has been set up can't be told in 6 issues we clearly know those things are going to be answered


    Quote Originally Posted by Armorfiend View Post
    - NO BAD GUYS. Whoopdee $#!+. Some children are plotting and planning. Generic strike teams with military weapons for Cyclops and Gorgon to smash up. Generic military teams with chunks of Domino stitched onto them. Generic Russians (But they look super-ish) with power dampening power armor. Wow. Real creative.
    Did you see Shaw kill Kitty? Did you see Apocalypse force Rogue to kill him? Yeah no bad guys

    Quote Originally Posted by Armorfiend View Post
    - No consequences for failure. Die? We'll bring you back! The mission in PoX/HoX to take out the mother mold; Why would Prof X shed one single, solitary tear? Why WOULDN'T your plan be to pack the spaceship full of powerful X-Men and PLAN on dying so you could do more to melt mothermold in the sun without worrying about an escape plan?
    When has there ever been consequence for failure ,When every X-men death was getting reverted before the status quo. Literally all you are complaining about is speed of how fast it has happens now in the status quo. Thunderbird is the only X-man that has ever stayed dead. Death in comics has been gimmick for sales for ages now, X-men isn't caring about using that gimmick for a little while and people are mad? We all this status quo isn't gonna last forever like this but you are flat out lying if you are saying death matters. Cyclops and Wolverine were the last two major deaths and not for one second did any fan believe they weren't coming back.

    Yeah this unpopular opinions thread but these are superficial complaints

  7. #3847
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Cochese View Post
    The birds are in the air. Pray to whatever deities you may believe in.
    HAHAHA! Yeah Waiting for the calls of Misogny incoming.

    Even though Emma was far more interesting as her own person. Jean and Cyclops kinda go hand in hand. So yeah they kinda depend on each other.

  8. #3848

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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    You do realize that not all stories happen at the same in comics. Right. The story with Kitty in FF happens before or after the story in the marauders. The story with X-23 happen before or after Fallen angels. You know how silly it would be every creator had to tell story on that tight timescale. What happens when a book is late? Every other book has to be push back so the timeline stays together?
    The thing is - at one time, this is exactly how Marvel was run. They'd have to communicate with one another and plan their stories together, if they were indeed going to interact with one another.
    You can look at just about any cross over that happened in the 80s and 90s in the X-Books that did exactly this. And even outside of the X-Offices. There was communication.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public...r_events#1900s
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public...r_events#1980s

    The idea of communicating with other writers in a shared universe should not be a far fetched idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    It is because mistake with timelines are that things are loose. Beside Publishing each week,month shouldn't necessary determine the timeline. If I pick up Marauders trade what do I care about the other stories? There is more than one to read and not everyone is picking up everybook. Like me. Apparently you won't be picking every book now so you will appreciate that your books aren't connected and you have to pick everybook monthly to get things.
    But when books weave (whether loosely or not, if there's a tie in) - it's horrid.
    You read X-Book #17, and it ends with X-Team 01 facing off against The Brotherhood of Evil People.
    You pick up next month's X-Book #18, and it starts off with X-Hero_01's funeral. This is because X-Book #17 ties into Force-X Book #11, in which X-Hero_01 has died in a fight with the Brotherhood of Evil People. But unless you picked up Force-X Book #11, you're going to be completely in the dark as to why your favorite hero is dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Every plotline of story that has been set up can't be told in 6 issues we clearly know those things are going to be answered
    Do we know? Do we?

    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    When has there ever been consequence for failure ,When every X-men death was getting reverted before the status quo. Literally all you are complaining about is speed of how fast it has happens now in the status quo. Thunderbird is the only X-man that has ever stayed dead. Death in comics has been gimmick for sales for ages now, X-men isn't caring about using that gimmick for a little while and people are mad? We all this status quo isn't gonna last forever like this but you are flat out lying if you are saying death matters. Cyclops and Wolverine were the last two major deaths and not for one second did any fan believe they weren't coming back.
    I think the point is - where's the risk? Cyclops is going to go face off against Sinister's Marauder's alone? He's not going to survive! And sure enough, Scalphunter shoots him between the eyes!
    OH!

    But don't worry. We will just pop him out of this pod. He's fine. But now he knows where the Marauders are hiding.

    Yes, Death has hardly meant anything to the Marvel Universe (mostly in part with Jean Grey's resurrection triggering the event of Marvel killing heroes for sales - Captain America in Civil War, for example - just to mysteriously bring them back because it was Jack from State Farm dressed as Cap! Or it was a clone! Or it was a Skrull! Or it was, "Well, we need him back and we already tricked our readers into buying hundreds of copies thinking it'd be worth something down the line! High five, Superman! This has been working out great for us!"

    But... at least there was the risk that these heroes COULD die... and at least be out of the picture for years.

    Not.... until next month when Cyclops returns!
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  9. #3849
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    Calling current X-force garbage is controversial?

  10. #3850
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam-X View Post

    Do we know? Do we?
    My answer were pretty straightforward a lot of the complaints were surface complaints. For example Mystique is on the cover upcoming issue and pretty much everyone knows what is her issue and we know Moria is getting a book. The poster is literally dinging X-men book for doing something they told us million times before it came out it was going to be a series of individual one of stories and stories are in continuity mind you just not interconnected to each other. He literally was complaining about self contained stories something that happen in comics all the time. Not everything has be 6 arc or 3 arc story, It is nice to read a story that ends right away once in awhile.

    I brought up legit point what happens when everything is interconnected and you have to delay a book, delays happen and it is real part of the industry that can't be avoided. It means that everything screwed by one book and it means that people can't tell different stories. Kitty being at different points in different books isn't a big deal.

    We can back on forth on the death but death has no meaning either way. So ask a Cyclops or Wolverine fan if they rather have their favorite character back the next week or wait around a couple years pretending like they won't bring them back. If books aren't doing dead mean dead then I don't care to hear people complain about meaningless death because they are already doing that now. How much has comics spoiled that I was laughing in Infinity Wars when everyone the theater was gasping at people disappearing. Not for one second did believe anybody was really dead because I read comics for their to be tension you have believe characters are going to stay dead. Week or Year the result is exactly the same but only one of them waste fans time.

    Anyways I get point of the topic but when a person is mad that every book is line up perfectly together on a timeline it is ridiculous complaint even for this thread.
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 02-06-2020 at 04:27 AM.

  11. #3851
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    Quote Originally Posted by From The Shadows View Post
    To be fair I remember Scott actually didn't just resume his romance with Jean right away. He was being standoffish and distant with Jean so much so I remember them fighting over it and Jean used her powers! This was an awful situation for all three involved and for Jean you have to imagine what it would be like to come back to life and the man who proposed to you just before you died is married to someone who looks just like you. I'm not saying what they did was right but I imagine making the right decision isn't easy here.

    And yes! Revealing Maddie to be Jean instead would have prevented a lot of awfulness.
    I think we can all agree that the transition to the original X-Factor was... not great. I see why Claremont tried to hamfist some Mr. Sinister programming into Scott to explain, but even on the face of it, Scott flying to NYC when he's told that Jean is alive is crappy, but understandable. Yes, he should talk to his wife about it. It's pretty much unforgivable (but notably almost exactly the same way Warren reacts)

    If we can find it in ourselves to be charitable, Scott has a bit of a breakdown here. Jean has been dead for a while, he had seen "her" die on the moon. His mind is reeling. How does he explain it to Maddie? And if we think of what the conversation was like - how it was for Jean, coming into this new world and her last moments had been about saving Scott and her friends - that she is in a vulnerable place and needs to see the person she loves most. I suppose an analogy would be a comatose patient waking up and wanting to see their spouse... is it unreasonable that Warren would ask that Scott come?

    And right there, in that moment, Maddie gives Scott the ultimatum - "If you walk out that door, don't bother coming back". Even when Scott sees Jean, he holds himself back. He's conflicted. Jean leaves, blowing out the side of the building. Warren tells Scott to go after her, but he can't, he can't think, he's having a breakdown. He goes off for two weeks until Bobby and Hank find him. Again, his behavior isn't great, but it isn't "jumps right into bed with Jean." When he finally calls Maddie in issue 2, the phone number is disconnected. I don't think he actually "gets" with Jean until Fall of the Mutants when he sees the tape of Madeline going to her death with the X-men.

    TL;DR - Scott's behavior is bad, but not as callous as often said.

  12. #3852
    Ultimate Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tazirai View Post
    HAHAHA! Yeah Waiting for the calls of Misogny incoming.

    Even though Emma was far more interesting as her own person. Jean and Cyclops kinda go hand in hand. So yeah they kinda depend on each other.
    Emma would be a C list character if she wasn't Scott's girlfriend

  13. #3853
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    Emma would be a C list character if she wasn't Scott's girlfriend
    Some could make the debate that Jean would be as well, without the status of being the girlfriend of (arguably) the lead + having the one iconic Phoenix story.

    I don't actually believe that to be the case with either woman though.

  14. #3854
    Ultimate Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Some could make the debate that Jean would be as well, without the status of being the girlfriend of (arguably) the lead + having the one iconic Phoenix story.

    I don't actually believe that to be the case with either woman though.
    Jean didn't really needed Scott. Phoenix story put her on the big league chaarcters.

    Emma would get forgotten on some 3rd tier book like Gen X

  15. #3855
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    Kinda wish jean was under aaron and his phoenix ideas to get a break from these type of back and forth's whenever emma breathes

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