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  1. #8236
    Extraordinary Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grunty View Post
    It's quite difficult to get a good understanding of what 7 billion people from various nationalities, cultures, ethnicities, religions, social standings, work occupations, ages, level of education, etc. (including real life oppressed groups) think about a small randomly collected group of people, who are defined by purely fictional super powers, when the universe is mostly seen through the eyes of super heros, super villains, members of secret or extremist organizations or one shot characters. Especialy when said viewpoint mostly involves stories of extreme events, rather than dialy life.

    Which makes it problematic when writers try to play "humanity" off as a unified hatefull front against a singular small group of people.

    What makes "God Loves, Man Kills" work so well in that regard is that it tries to at least give a bit of an insight into the discourse about mutants happening in the fictional version of the USA.

    Also i can't help but get reminded to the scene where Stryker points at Nightcrawler and goes "Human? You dare call that... thing human?" when writers over the past years have made the X-men (the supposed to be humble and above prejudice super HEROS of the mutant world) talk in negatively generalized way about the rest of humanity or downright express a belief in a general "superiority" of mutants.
    Yeah, Mutant Superiority was a HUGE thing with old-school Magneto, Apocalypse, Sinister, and Exodus. It took a few different flavors with them, but it was a general idea of more powerful = better.

    Magneto was "we are the future!" and saw normies as an evolutionary dead end.

    Apocalypse doesn't really care. He's a Mutant, and he's super strong, but... a lot of Mutants aren't. Apoccy respects strength more than purity of bloodline. But normies are losers either way.

    Exodus... hard to be sure what he thinks. In many stories he's more super-mook than leader. Sure he's a terror to behold in battle... but... that doesn't tell us a lot about his goals.

    Sinister... is a madman who likes to create monsters... out of Mutant DNA.

  2. #8237
    Astonishing Member Habis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Exodus... hard to be sure what he thinks. In many stories he's more super-mook than leader. Sure he's a terror to behold in battle... but... that doesn't tell us a lot about his goals.
    Exodus thinks that he is destined for greatness and glory, and is always looking for the great destiny reserved for him. He is easily moved by the promise of a place at the forefront of a great cause.
    Last edited by Habis; 12-01-2021 at 12:05 PM.

  3. #8238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Habis View Post
    Exodus thinks that he is destined for greatness and glory, and is always looking for the great destiny reserved for him. He is easily moved by the promise of place at the forefront of a great cause.
    I hope this can be explored ,I always get the sense Exodus sees himself as a herald, laying the ground or way for the true mutant golden age to be led by a 'mutant messiah' .In a way he is the John the Baptist of mutantdom. I think a story of him stopping drumming up support for someone different but belief in himself would be interesting. I see a progression of his beliefs in Hickman era already, he is no longer Magneto's 'butler' doesn't suck up to Apocalypse..there's definitely a sense of autonomy about him.Now all that's left is for him to walk away from the duplicity and games of his peers on the QC, no need to get tainted by such childish bs, after all experientially he's now the oldest guy on the council. He more than anyone else on Krakoa is analogous to Arrako's White Sword
    Last edited by Rev9; 12-01-2021 at 07:51 AM.

  4. #8239
    Astonishing Member TheRay's Avatar
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    All of Axis was great.

  5. #8240
    Spectacular Member djoki96's Avatar
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    I don't know how unpopular this is (but I'd wager on "very") but Excalibur 25 really went "colonialism is good when we do it" huh? Now that I think about, the whole book is like that. Not surprising, I guess, since the main character is a member of British aristocracy, but still...
    Last edited by djoki96; 12-02-2021 at 02:38 PM.

  6. #8241
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    Quote Originally Posted by djoki96 View Post
    I don't know how unpopular this is (but I'd wager on "very") but Excalibur 25 really went "colonialism is good when we do it" huh? Now that I think about, the whole book is like that. Not surprising, I guess, since the main character is a member of British aristocracy, but still...
    it really just comes down to how tini howard has been writing the main characters and the antagonists in her books the last year. in x corp monet and selene use there powers to bully and take advantage of people that they are up against in the business world, but because fenris are nazis and the other two antagonists are just as bad for working with them, the wrong doing of the x corp group is ignored.
    similar with excalibur the antagonists are just racist to mutants, so betsy being not a very good captain britain is chalked up to people disliking her being a mutant, and the 616 mutants taking over otherworld is not a prolem because merlyn is racist towards mutants now.

  7. #8242
    Spectacular Member djoki96's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carmoc1234 View Post
    it really just comes down to how tini howard has been writing the main characters and the antagonists in her books the last year. in x corp monet and selene use there powers to bully and take advantage of people that they are up against in the business world, but because fenris are nazis and the other two antagonists are just as bad for working with them, the wrong doing of the x corp group is ignored.
    similar with excalibur the antagonists are just racist to mutants, so betsy being not a very good captain britain is chalked up to people disliking her being a mutant, and the 616 mutants taking over otherworld is not a prolem because merlyn is racist towards mutants now.
    As a fan of Selene (in a love to hate way) the way she's writing her is a total white feminism #girlboss moment.

  8. #8243
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    Quote Originally Posted by djoki96 View Post
    As a fan of Selene (in a love to hate way) the way she's writing her is a total white feminism #girlboss moment.
    agreed. it doesn't fit selene as a character and it does not feel earned at all. she goes off on a rant about how she finds nazis disgusting to the guy working with fenris, even though she brought the red skull back about two years ago.

  9. #8244
    Astonishing Member Habis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev9 View Post
    I hope this can be explored ,I always get the sense Exodus sees himself as a herald, laying the ground or way for the true mutant golden age to be led by a 'mutant messiah' .In a way he is the John the Baptist of mutantdom. I think a story of him stopping drumming up support for someone different but belief in himself would be interesting. I see a progression of his beliefs in Hickman era already, he is no longer Magneto's 'butler' doesn't suck up to Apocalypse..there's definitely a sense of autonomy about him.Now all that's left is for him to walk away from the duplicity and games of his peers on the QC, no need to get tainted by such childish bs, after all experientially he's now the oldest guy on the council. He more than anyone else on Krakoa is analogous to Arrako's White Sword
    A thing about Exodus is, the cause he has been serving has never been personal for him, emotionally speaking. He has never been oppressed or discriminated for being a mutant... hell, he didn't know what a mutant was or that he had powers before Apocalypse lured and transformed him... he was just a medieval knight seeking glory... he broke Apocalypse's control, was trapped in a crypt, and later Magneto awakened him and recruited him for his cause.

    As for caring for discriminated minorities... he was a glory-seeking medieval knight, he was privileged, he never experienced prejudice, and he probably didn't care shit about minorities...

    He just was told: "This is a righteous cause, and it is glorious and just", and he signed in...

    He is still in it for the glory ride...

    He still needs to discover what he really wants, what he believes him. Right now, he is just following what he is told is right.

    I think Exodus should find his own cause thanks to his own experiences. Or his own vision of the mutant cause.
    Last edited by Habis; 12-03-2021 at 01:41 PM.

  10. #8245
    Extraordinary Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carmoc1234 View Post
    agreed. it doesn't fit selene as a character and it does not feel earned at all. she goes off on a rant about how she finds nazis disgusting to the guy working with fenris, even though she brought the red skull back about two years ago.
    Yeah it's too much white hat/black hat. There's no real characterization. Sure it's not exactly the same, but characters tend to act like "we are x thus we do Y".

  11. #8246
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    Quote Originally Posted by Habis View Post
    A thing about Exodus is, the cause he has been serving has never been personal for him, emotionally speaking. He has never been oppressed or discriminated for being a mutant... hell, he didn't know what a mutant was or that he had powers before Apocalypse lured and transformed him... he was just a medieval knight seeking glory... he broke Apocalypse's control, was trapped in a crypt, and later Magneto awakened him and recruited him for his cause.

    As for caring for discriminated minorities... he was a glory-seeking medieval knight, he was privileged, he never experienced prejudice, and he probably didn't care shit about minorities...

    He just was told: "This is just cause, and it is glorious and just", and he signed in...

    He is still in it for the glory ride...

    He still needs to discover what he really wants, what he believes him. Right now, he is just following what he is told is right.

    I think Exodus should find his own cause thanks to his own experiences. Or his own vision of the mutant cause.
    I don't mind the way he is introduced ,even if he does not have a history of being discriminated.I think his Christian crusader background dovetails into the mutant narrative.It may be counterintuitive to many but Christians are meant to understand in an eschatological sense that we all suffer ,but there will come a time of peace, reward for our struggle and a blissful existence. It is destined for those who are chosen by God.So in a way Exodus with his belief system just transposed the details to mutantdom.Mutants are gifted and special, so to him they are the chosen people who should look out for one another until their providentially destined golden age arrives.I don't see much contradiction. Certainly there is no need to embitter Exodus into a medieval magneto.He doesn't need to have identical motivations to Magneto when his own are rational and sensible.If anything Magneto inexplicably substituted his kinship with humanity through his Jewish heritage suffering human on human persecution with mutant-human animus.Were all Jews mutants? Were all Nazis human?(in this lore unlikely..)So for me Exodus actually has a more justified perspective than Magneto .I don't subscribe to the notion that all mutants are oppressed through all time, and so to have cred with mutants a mutant must be oppressed. I don't buy that kind of contrived narrative anyway.

  12. #8247
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    Quote Originally Posted by Habis View Post
    He still needs to discover what he really wants, what he believes him. Right now, he is just following what he is told is right.

    I think Exodus should find his own cause thanks to his own experiences. Or his own vision of the mutant cause.
    In a way, he's kind of refreshing. He's got big, big power, but is completely lost for having a big, big idea, and so has to latch on to the big ideas of others.

    He's kind of like Graviton, over in the Thunderbolts run by Busiek. All this world-changing power, and just no real clue what to do with it.

    But yeah, he's a knight, searching for a crusade. He's not terribly interested in the holy cause, but he doesn't seem to know anything else.

    Someone with *vision* is gonna snap him up and convert him to their cause, someday. My money's on Selene. She could totally find a use for an Omega boy-toy.

  13. #8248
    Extraordinary Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    In a way, he's kind of refreshing. He's got big, big power, but is completely lost for having a big, big idea, and so has to latch on to the big ideas of others.

    He's kind of like Graviton, over in the Thunderbolts run by Busiek. All this world-changing power, and just no real clue what to do with it.

    But yeah, he's a knight, searching for a crusade. He's not terribly interested in the holy cause, but he doesn't seem to know anything else.

    Someone with *vision* is gonna snap him up and convert him to their cause, someday. My money's on Selene. She could totally find a use for an Omega boy-toy.
    Selene doesn't strike me as the sort of person who wants an equal partner.

  14. #8249
    Astonishing Member Celestialbodies's Avatar
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    So I've been re-reading Morrison's New X-men (again), and if you've read any of my posts you know I adore that run however I think I now understand why fans of the X-men hated his direction. There's this innate cynicism connected to how he viewed the X-men, he deconstructed most of the themes and stories without the thought to put them back correctly, and honestly I don't think he really liked any of the characters.

    Sure he touches on all of the biggest highlights of the X-men history but how he used the characters were wildly out of character, no one outside of his main cast kept or displayed a real personality opposed to how he thought they should engage. And I think he did a disservice to a large portion of the characters he used, I'm thinking specifically back to X-corps members that appeared in his run and were casually killed by Weapon XV. I still think he's one of Jean's best writers, however almost everyone else he touched were misused, imo!


    Quote Originally Posted by djoki96 View Post
    As a fan of Selene (in a love to hate way) the way she's writing her is a total white feminism #girlboss moment.
    Quote Originally Posted by carmoc1234 View Post
    agreed. it doesn't fit selene as a character and it does not feel earned at all. she goes off on a rant about how she finds nazis disgusting to the guy working with fenris, even though she brought the red skull back about two years ago.

    Honestly, in this era Selene has been one of the most misused and incredibly forgotten which sucks to me. Especially with how much attention Hickman gave Apocalypse, I wish I could be upset but unfortunately women especially X-women hardly ever receive so much attention and direction from the narrative. It's such a missed opportunity to have the first mutant reflect and interact with the founding of this new mutant nation...and nothing.

    I haven't check her out in X-corps as that title and mission statement doesn't excite me at all, and I don't feel like it is remotely the correct title for Selene.
    Last edited by Celestialbodies; 12-03-2021 at 03:12 PM.

  15. #8250
    Extraordinary Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celestialbodies View Post
    Honestly, in this era Selene has been one of the most misused and incredibly forgotten which sucks to me. Especially with how much attention Hickman gave Apocalypse, I wish I could be upset but unfortunately women especially X-women hardly ever receive so much attention and direction from the narrative. It's such a missed opportunity to have the first mutant reflect and interact with the founding of this new mutant nation...and nothing.

    I haven't check her out in X-corps as that title and mission statement doesn't excite me at all, and I don't feel like it is remotely the correct title for Selene.
    Another I was hoping to see used more was Candra. I mean what Mutants have an actual super-power to enhance Mutant powers? CANDRA DOES!!!!! But does that get used? no, instead Apocalypse turns her into part of his portal to Otherworld....

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