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  1. #8221
    Mighty Member Outburstz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev9 View Post
    It is written that way to make Sinister relevant, with Dr Nemesis on there,Beast .Sinister is surplus to requirements.On the cloning, yes he is a clone but the finer point is Sinister was never a mutant, he made himself one through splicing mutant DNA into his own.He has always attempted to transcend mere mortal identity through eugenics and all sorts of technologically assisted enhancements the very definition of HN or 'transhumanism'
    Quote Originally Posted by Rev9 View Post
    They don't obviously.As I said the need is 'baked into the cake' .with the intellect of Dr.Nemesis and Beast they could have started with some hidden cache of DNA samples collected from the 200 mutant survivors post M-day, or say Beast kept a school 'gene bank', and progress from there that being on Krakoa requires submitting blood samples. There are ways to make this work without Sinister.I don't even really care about Sinister..he is a villain and a classic one, but him being outside Krakoa only raises the stakes because with humans subjecting themselves to his research to gain parity with mutants is a treasure trove of story potential.Instead you have the unsavoury optics of mutants working with a HN while wagging fingers at humanity for putting mutants in peril by doing so.
    There is nobody who has more DNA samples on mutants than Sinister. Stealing DNA samples is his whole thing. Saying Dr nem or Beast would have as much DNA samples as Sinister is flat out insulting.

    Cutting deals with former enemies for the purpose of personal gain is something human nations have done for centuries. Yet suddenly it's a problem when mutants do it for the purpose of giving mutants a leg up on the rest of humanity.....

    Magneto already spelled it out. "we are going to use humans own tricks against them."

  2. #8222
    Astonishing Member Habis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outburstz View Post
    Human society has been the main cause of most of the mutants problems.
    Maybe, but they never mention any of the things human actually did... they always focus on stuff somebody else did... and it feels weird, as if they were trying to rewrite history...

    Quote Originally Posted by Outburstz View Post
    Most of the evil mutants that exist are there to destroy humans because of their treatment of mutants in one form or another
    Not really. Most of the worst mutant supervillains weren't motivated by anti-murtant prejudice...

    Selene was treated like a sorcerer-queen for millennia... she didn't even knew she was a mutant to begin with, she thought she was a natural magician or demigoddess.

    Apocalypse was enslaved as a young man, before he manifested his powers, but afterwards he was worshipped as a god for millennia.

    Exodus went from a normal medieval european knight to minion of Apocalypse without experiencing any anti-mutant prejudice,

    Magneto attacked the UN at a time nobody knew what a mutant was; he feared that mutants would be persecuted and took preventive action before actual persecution started.

    Fabian Cortez, on his own admission, never experienced prejudice or persecution.

    Dyscordia grew during a period when mutants ruled the world, and he was treated like a prince...

    Mr. Sinister wasn't a mutant to begin with...

    Yeah, other mutants went bad because of persecution, but the worst villains weren´t motivated by any form of anti-mutant prejudice...

    Quote Originally Posted by Outburstz View Post
    So yeah it makes sense that they say screw it we are going to worry about ourselves and with them united and prospering there is no need to fight among each other.
    Except some of these mutants they are inviting have mutant dead counts greater than any human... Mr. Sinister alone probably has killed more mutants than any human government ever did, save maybe the Genoshan one...

    Quote Originally Posted by Outburstz View Post
    You picking out a hand full of heroes that were "nice" doesn't make up for the planet overwhelmingly hating mutants
    My point was that human reaction to Apocalypse, Magneto, Mr. Sinister and Exodus becoming part of Krakoa's ruling council has been incredibly mild... realistically speaking, they should have panicked, they should have broken all relations with Krakoa, they should have put their armies in high alert, the Sentinel factories on overdrive, and asked all the world's heroes to prepare for war...

    The Avengers, the 4F, Dr. Strange, they should be out of their minds... Apocalypse tried to blackmail the world's governments so they killed 90 % of their own populations... that's not something they can handwave and laugh about...

    I thought Xavier would hide Apocalypse, Mr. Sinister, Selene and Exodus from outsiders... but he paraded Apocalypse around... you can't do that and expect to avoid a world war... he is sabotaging his own endeavour...
    Last edited by Habis; 11-30-2021 at 05:43 AM.

  3. #8223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outburstz View Post
    There is nobody who has more DNA samples on mutants than Sinister. Stealing DNA samples is his whole thing. Saying Dr nem or Beast would have as much DNA samples as Sinister is flat out insulting.

    Cutting deals with former enemies for the purpose of personal gain is something human nations have done for centuries. Yet suddenly it's a problem when mutants do it for the purpose of giving mutants a leg up on the rest of humanity.....

    Magneto already spelled it out. "we are going to use humans own tricks against them."
    i agree with you that they did need him for his DNA collection, but do they still need him?

    he's a huge liability with how likely he is to betray them all, and already has in hellions.

    they already have his DNA samples, so getting rid of him and replacing him with a mutant like beast or nemesis feels like the smart thing to do.

    the only reason he sticks around is because he's mr sinister and that's what the story needs to happen.

  4. #8224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outburstz View Post
    There is nobody who has more DNA samples on mutants than Sinister. Stealing DNA samples is his whole thing. Saying Dr nem or Beast would have as much DNA samples as Sinister is flat out insulting.

    Cutting deals with former enemies for the purpose of personal gain is something human nations have done for centuries. Yet suddenly it's a problem when mutants do it for the purpose of giving mutants a leg up on the rest of humanity.....

    Magneto already spelled it out. "we are going to use humans own tricks against them."
    No one is debating what Magneto said, the fact is whatever Xavier and he said, they both have no moral high ground saying it.Sinister is HN before HN even became a 'thing' ,humanity have HN amongst themselves- the CoV (who don't consider themselves human and cannot be termed human allies) plus CoV are nowhere near as old as Sinister. Yes humans have examples of 'operation paperclip' to underscore Magneto's stance ,but this comic positions mutants as victims of human technological progress resulting in HN being mutants' biggest threat ,yet here they are calling Sinister one of their own when they probably know he isn't mutant. I'm just pointing out hypocrisy, if you're cool with it fine.
    Last edited by Rev9; 11-30-2021 at 07:23 AM.

  5. #8225
    Extraordinary Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Habis View Post
    Maybe, but they never mention any of the things human actually did... they always focus on stuff somebody else did... and it feels weird, as if they were trying to rewrite history...



    Not really. Most of the worst mutant supervillains weren't motivated by anti-murtant prejudice...

    Selene was treated like a sorcerer-queen for millennia... she didn't even knew she was a mutant to begin with, she thought she was a natural magician or demigoddess.

    Apocalypse was enslaved as a young man, before he manifested his powers, but afterwards he was worshipped as a god for millennia.

    Exodus went from a normal medieval european knight to minion of Apocalypse without experiencing any anti-mutant prejudice,

    Magneto attacked the UN at a time nobody knew what a mutant was; he feared that mutants would be persecuted and took preventive action before actual persecution started.

    Fabian Cortez, on his own admission, never experienced prejudice or persecution.

    Dyscordia grew during a period when mutants ruled the world, and he was treated like a prince...

    Mr. Sinister wasn't a mutant to begin with...

    Yeah, other mutants went bad because of persecution, but the worst villains weren´t motivated by any form of anti-mutant prejudice...



    Except some of these mutants they are inviting have mutant dead counts greater than any human... Mr. Sinister alone probably has killed more mutants than any human government ever did, save maybe the Genoshan one...



    My point was that human reaction to Apocalypse, Magneto, Mr. Sinister and Exodus becoming part of Krakoa's ruling council has been incredibly mild... realistically speaking, they should have panicked, they should have broken all relations with Krakoa, they should have put their armies in high alert, the Sentinel factories on overdrive, and asked all the world's heroes to prepare for war...

    The Avengers, the 4F, Dr. Strange, they should be out of their minds... Apocalypse tried to blackmail the world's governments so they killed 90 % of their own populations... that's not something they can handwave and laugh about...

    I thought Xavier would hide Apocalypse, Mr. Sinister, Selene and Exodus from outsiders... but he paraded Apocalypse around... you can't do that and expect to avoid a world war... he is sabotaging his own endeavour...
    Yeah, all of this stuff. in-universe extreme anti-mutant hatred is a new thing, and not something the general populace is actually on board with.

  6. #8226
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Yeah, all of this stuff. in-universe extreme anti-mutant hatred is a new thing, and not something the general populace is actually on board with.
    From what i see, several writers have tried to retroactively establish anti-mutant prejudice to have been there throughout human history. Ala. "Oh yes witch burnings were actualy anti-mutant prejudice. Because mutants have now been a thing for millenia and hatred against them is more special than hatred against fellow humans."

    But yes. the "Grrr humans are to blame for everything!" mentality has grown out of hand and it feels like many writers have jumped on it for cheap re-affirment on why the mutant heros should not be portraid as above hatred and prejudice anymore and instead often spout rethoric which sounds more like what was established as the mentality of mutant villains.

    Disregarding that the worst that happend to mutants over the decades of continuity is dominantly at the hands of anything but normal humans (including other mutants). Likewise the extreme death toll that some prominent mutants have caused over the years of publication (we have SEVERAL settings in which Apocalypse wiped out billions of innocent people, normal humans and mutants alike).

  7. #8227
    Mighty Member Outburstz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Habis View Post
    Maybe, but they never mention any of the things human actually did... they always focus on stuff somebody else did... and it feels weird, as if they were trying to rewrite history...
    What is there to rewrite when it's still happening? Did you forget Doom holding mutant children hostage in doombots, the russians hunting down mutants, groups still kidnapping mutants,


    Not really. Most of the worst mutant supervillains weren't motivated by anti-murtant prejudice...

    Selene was treated like a sorcerer-queen for millennia... she didn't even knew she was a mutant to begin with, she thought she was a natural magician or demigoddess.

    Apocalypse was enslaved as a young man, before he manifested his powers, but afterwards he was worshipped as a god for millennia.

    Exodus went from a normal medieval european knight to minion of Apocalypse without experiencing any anti-mutant prejudice,

    Magneto attacked the UN at a time nobody knew what a mutant was; he feared that mutants would be persecuted and took preventive action before actual persecution started.

    Fabian Cortez, on his own admission, never experienced prejudice or persecution.

    Dyscordia grew during a period when mutants ruled the world, and he was treated like a prince...

    Mr. Sinister wasn't a mutant to begin with...

    Yeah, other mutants went bad because of persecution, but the worst villains weren´t motivated by any form of anti-mutant prejudice...
    I guess intersectionality doesn't exist. In 616 universe mutants are the most oppressed group on Earth. If mutants as a part of different human communities saw what humans would do to one of their own it's not that much of a leap to expect the same from a group that's hated more. Mainly in Apoc and Magneto's case.

    Selene, Exodus, and Sinister are just crazy


    Except some of these mutants they are inviting have mutant dead counts greater than any human... Mr. Sinister alone probably has killed more mutants than any human government ever did, save maybe the Genoshan one...


    My point was that human reaction to Apocalypse, Magneto, Mr. Sinister and Exodus becoming part of Krakoa's ruling council has been incredibly mild... realistically speaking, they should have panicked, they should have broken all relations with Krakoa, they should have put their armies in high alert, the Sentinel factories on overdrive, and asked all the world's heroes to prepare for war...

    The Avengers, the 4F, Dr. Strange, they should be out of their minds... Apocalypse tried to blackmail the world's governments so they killed 90 % of their own populations... that's not something they can handwave and laugh about...
    So I guess you just forgot the whole deal between Krakoa and the rest of the nations that accepted the drugs right. It was already established that all mutants were welcome on Krakoa during that time. There was no shock at criminals such as them being allowed on Krakoa. Diplomatic immunity was used by Storm to get some mutants to safety in Children of the Atom I believe.

    It also doesn't really make sense to try to destroy your supplier when you can't replicate what they are making on your own.

    Which is why the main advisory of Krakoa is Orchis and not the UN

    I thought Xavier would hide Apocalypse, Mr. Sinister, Selene and Exodus from outsiders... but he paraded Apocalypse around... you can't do that and expect to avoid a world war... he is sabotaging his own endeavour...
    I don't know why you would think that when he broadcasted to the whole world that mutants are welcomed on Krakoa.

    Quote Originally Posted by carmoc1234 View Post
    i agree with you that they did need him for his DNA collection, but do they still need him?

    he's a huge liability with how likely he is to betray them all, and already has in hellions.

    they already have his DNA samples, so getting rid of him and replacing him with a mutant like beast or nemesis feels like the smart thing to do.

    the only reason he sticks around is because he's mr sinister and that's what the story needs to happen.
    They don't have his samples. He allows them to use his samples that he provides to them. If he wanted to destroy all the samples I am sure he could. It is not like Sinister just handed everything over to them with no back up plan for a double cross. Come on now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rev9 View Post
    No one is debating what Magneto said, the fact is whatever Xavier and he said, they both have no moral high ground saying it.Sinister is HN before HN even became a 'thing' ,humanity have HN amongst themselves- the CoV (who don't consider themselves human and cannot be termed human allies) plus CoV are nowhere near as old as Sinister. Yes humans have examples of 'operation paperclip' to underscore Magneto's stance ,but this comic positions mutants as victims of human technological progress resulting in HN being mutants' biggest threat ,yet here they are calling Sinister one of their own when they probably know he isn't mutant. I'm just pointing out hypocrisy, if you're cool with it fine.
    Sinister's clone made with mutant dna from the start is no different then any other mutant clone.

    If you can call X-23 a mutant you can call Sinister's clone a mutant

    What you are talking about is AI technology mixed with humans that is the biggest threat. Those are two different things.

  8. #8228
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outburstz View Post
    They don't have his samples. He allows them to use his samples that he provides to them. If he wanted to destroy all the samples I am sure he could. It is not like Sinister just handed everything over to them with no back up plan for a double cross. Come on now.
    when i say they have all the samples i mean they are all in bar sinister which is on krakoa. hellions also showed that at the very least emma is wise enough to sinisters tricks that she can have him monitored and expose his plans without getting caught by him so getting past a double cross of destroying the samples isn't too hard to believe.

  9. #8229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outburstz View Post
    What is there to rewrite when it's still happening? Did you forget Doom holding mutant children hostage in doombots, the russians hunting down mutants, groups still kidnapping mutants,



    I guess intersectionality doesn't exist. In 616 universe mutants are the most oppressed group on Earth. If mutants as a part of different human communities saw what humans would do to one of their own it's not that much of a leap to expect the same from a group that's hated more. Mainly in Apoc and Magneto's case.

    Selene, Exodus, and Sinister are just crazy








    So I guess you just forgot the whole deal between Krakoa and the rest of the nations that accepted the drugs right. It was already established that all mutants were welcome on Krakoa during that time. There was no shock at criminals such as them being allowed on Krakoa. Diplomatic immunity was used by Storm to get some mutants to safety in Children of the Atom I believe.

    It also doesn't really make sense to try to destroy your supplier when you can't replicate what they are making on your own.

    Which is why the main advisory of Krakoa is Orchis and not the UN


    I don't know why you would think that when he broadcasted to the whole world that mutants are welcomed on Krakoa.


    They don't have his samples. He allows them to use his samples that he provides to them. If he wanted to destroy all the samples I am sure he could. It is not like Sinister just handed everything over to them with no back up plan for a double cross. Come on now.



    Sinister's clone made with mutant dna from the start is no different then any other mutant clone.

    If you can call X-23 a mutant you can call Sinister's clone a mutant

    What you are talking about is AI technology mixed with humans that is the biggest threat. Those are two different things.
    First of all comparing X23 to Sinister is disingenuous as X23 was not a willing participant, she is a product of the process.Sinister although he is distinct from his clones, is basically the same person(which means we can presume he is a more proficient cloner to the point of cloning a similar character or seeding his character into the clones) The idea that HN are the result of AI is false, HN are not AI because in life 6 we clearly see they are biological organisms who cannot be assimilated by Phalanx but do so through transfering copies of their consciousness into machines. AI is definitely part of the HN progression cycle but they are not the same. Besides to be HN the subjects even at nascent level just have to work with machinery to make leaps in genetics,robotics,nano tech etc but that machinery doesn't have to be sentient to qualify.I remember Sinister using a certain Cronos/Chronos device to seed his consciousness in other vessels, that isn't AI ,but it gave him some clear advantage in survival so I don't know why you think Sinister is not HN already.

  10. #8230
    Astonishing Member Habis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Yeah, all of this stuff. in-universe extreme anti-mutant hatred is a new thing, and not something the general populace is actually on board with.
    Oh, there is quite a lot of anti-mutant hatred around, but it is usually on the level of some assholes harassing a mutant kid on the street, or US government trying to force mutants to register, or SHIELD building and storing a bunch of Sentinels just in case...

    The only times I remember governments trying a direct attack against mutants on a large scale was after the Onslaught event, when Bastion convinced the US government to give him control (and the US government hit the brakes at the last minute and stopped him), during Norman Osborn's tenure as head of HAMMER (and that was due to Osborn wounded pride rather than any anti-mutant hatred) and during Avengers vs X-Men (and again, that was only due to fear to Phoenix provoking an extinction event).

    If the X-Men had created Utopia II in Krakoa, out of any other nation's territorial waters and sold their medicines without threatening anybody, they would be regarded as just another Attilan, or another Atlantis, or another Wakanda, or even another Latveria. I think at the beginning most people saw them like that.

    But Xavier has let Magneto threaten and insult the world's nations' ambassadors, and has paraded Apocalypse around... Why didn't he send Storm and Jean to deal with the ambassadors? If they really intend to use economy to disable their enemies, rather than direct confrontation and war... why do they use Magneto and Apocalypse as their public faces?

    Yeah, I know that, during one of Moira's lives they tried to live in isolation in Faraway and they were attacked anyway, but, what they are doing now doesn't reduce the chances of an attack, they increase them... why don't they do what they are doing, destroying Sentinel factories in the down-low, but showing a nice, friendly face to the world?

    Do they really think that the Avengers and the X-Men are going to be intimidated by Magneto and Apocalypse? Don't they realize that parading them around will increase the support given to Orchis exponentially?

    Terraforming Mars is okay, but, if they are afraid of Orchis advancing their development of Nimrod Sentinels, why is their response to declare Mars the capital of the Sol system, and Storm its regent? They have de facto declared Earth a province of their dominion...Don't they realize that Orchis is going to get flooded with billions of dollars to help them advance their weapons programs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Outburstz View Post
    What is there to rewrite when it's still happening? Did you forget Doom holding mutant children hostage in doombots, the russians hunting down mutants, groups still kidnapping mutants.
    But most of the time, they don't speak about that. They only speak about the Genoshan Genocide and Decimation, blaming it on humans...

    I would understand it if they spoke about the old government of Genosha that enslaved mutants, or about that time some group created Phallanx, or about the Avengers vs X-Men war... but they never speak about that... they only speak about the Genoshan Genocide and Decimation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outburstz View Post
    So I guess you just forgot the whole deal between Krakoa and the rest of the nations that accepted the drugs right. It was already established that all mutants were welcome on Krakoa during that time. There was no shock at criminals such as them being allowed on Krakoa. Diplomatic immunity was used by Storm to get some mutants to safety in Children of the Atom I believe.

    It also doesn't really make sense to try to destroy your supplier when you can't replicate what they are making on your own.

    Which is why the main advisory of Krakoa is Orchis and not the UN.
    There is a limit to how much the leverage of those medicines should realistically let them get away with. Apocalypse literally tried to force governments to kill 99 % of their own, using the threat of a bioweapon... Magneto unleashed an electromagnetic attack against the world, then used the threat of a second one to get Genosha handed to him, and later he used Genosha to prepare a war of conquest against the world (he failed only because, in true MU supervillain way, he tried to make a public spectacle out of the execution of the captured X-Men instead of killing them at once...).

    You can't make people forget that using economy...

    The governments of the world should say "we will get by without these medicines, thank you!".

    And anyways, how long before Doom or Black Panther or Reed Richards wipe some synthetic copy of these medicines, ruining their plan?

    EDIT: If they really wanted Apocalypse and Mr. Sinister to become part of Krakoa, they should have done it gradually. Xavier and Magneto working with them in secret, and when the rest of the X-Men discover it, it becomes a big deal and there is an internal conflict that divides Krakoa. And later, when humans discover it, everything goes to hell.

    What they did instead was to openly invite them, parade them around, and everybody, mutant and human, is okay with it, save Orchis, who are supposed to be the bad ones...
    Last edited by Habis; 11-30-2021 at 04:02 PM.

  11. #8231
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    What is there to rewrite when it's still happening? Did you forget Doom holding mutant children hostage in doombots, the russians hunting down mutants, groups still kidnapping mutants.
    Doom is a bad example.

    The guys a supervillian. He's going to do supervillian stuff. He's been using and experimenting on his citizens for ages. Calling Doom out on it now just makes it look like they didn't care until it was their kind he started to mess with.

  12. #8232
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    Is it even a majority of humans who hate mutants? Or is it just that most of the humans the X-Men interact with are mutant haters.

    I just read "God Loves, Man Kills" for the first time and one of the things that really stood out to me is how split the audience was over what Stryker was preaching toward the end. Some were all about it. Some thought he was out of line. And some weren't sure what to think. I think we've lost a lot of nuance and complexity about this subject over the years.

  13. #8233
    Astonishing Member Habis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdamFTF View Post
    Is it even a majority of humans who hate mutants? Or is it just that most of the humans the X-Men interact with are mutant haters.

    I just read "God Loves, Man Kills" for the first time and one of the things that really stood out to me is how split the audience was over what Stryker was preaching toward the end. Some were all about it. Some thought he was out of line. And some weren't sure what to think. I think we've lost a lot of nuance and complexity about this subject over the years.
    Yep. And not just mutant titles, mind you.

    Nowadays, when a Marvel writer wants something to happen, they don't try to justify it in any way... It just happens. They don't make an effort to pretend people (both heroes and civilians) behave, think and react normally...

  14. #8234
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdamFTF View Post
    Is it even a majority of humans who hate mutants? Or is it just that most of the humans the X-Men interact with are mutant haters.

    I just read "God Loves, Man Kills" for the first time and one of the things that really stood out to me is how split the audience was over what Stryker was preaching toward the end. Some were all about it. Some thought he was out of line. And some weren't sure what to think. I think we've lost a lot of nuance and complexity about this subject over the years.
    No its not the majority

  15. #8235
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdamFTF View Post
    Is it even a majority of humans who hate mutants? Or is it just that most of the humans the X-Men interact with are mutant haters.

    I just read "God Loves, Man Kills" for the first time and one of the things that really stood out to me is how split the audience was over what Stryker was preaching toward the end. Some were all about it. Some thought he was out of line. And some weren't sure what to think. I think we've lost a lot of nuance and complexity about this subject over the years.
    It's quite difficult to get a good understanding of what 7 billion people from various nationalities, cultures, ethnicities, religions, social standings, work occupations, ages, level of education, etc. (including real life oppressed groups) think about a small randomly collected group of people, who are defined by purely fictional super powers, when the universe is mostly seen through the eyes of super heros, super villains, members of secret or extremist organizations or one shot characters. Especialy when said viewpoint mostly involves stories of extreme events, rather than dialy life.

    Which makes it problematic when writers try to play "humanity" off as a unified hatefull front against a singular small group of people.

    What makes "God Loves, Man Kills" work so well in that regard is that it tries to at least give a bit of an insight into the discourse about mutants happening in the fictional version of the USA.

    Also i can't help but get reminded to the scene where Stryker points at Nightcrawler and goes "Human? You dare call that... thing human?" when writers over the past years have made the X-men (the supposed to be humble and above prejudice super HEROS of the mutant world) talk in negatively generalized way about the rest of humanity or downright express a belief in a general "superiority" of mutants.
    Last edited by Grunty; 11-30-2021 at 04:31 PM.

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