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  1. #5506
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiderClops View Post
    Schism was never going to make sense, no matter who opposed Scott. The central narrative of that story is that Cyclops is going morally bankrupt. Except the problem witht that is that Cyclops has always had a moral high ground than almost every other X-Men(yes, that includes Storm). No one had a leg to stand on when judging Scott. People had done far worse things for much less.
    This. They pushed hard for Scott to be a villain (for years, even, in Schism, then IvX), in-universe even having people act like he was some sort of mutant terrorist worse than Magneto could ever be, but in reality.. he really never did anything all that crazy.

    And I'm happy to explain to anyone how ridiculous AvX was and how absolutely bonkers it was for the entire Avengers crew to show up to Utopia on a helicarrier and tell Scott "give us Hope or we're coming onto your sovereign territory and kidnapping her because we, the avengers, know better than you, her family and fellow species, do". Ab-sol-utely outrageous how they tried to make Scott look bad when all he was doing was trying to protect him and his from a world constantly fighting them for everything they tried to do.

    But they've done a lot of dumb shit over the years with the x-men, tbh, scott and logan were not alone in that. (I really hate how illyana and piotr were pitted against each other for really no reason besides nonsense angst, and how kitty and colossus' breakup made absolutely no sense, but that's another pair of stories)

  2. #5507
    Astonishing Member Omega Alpha's Avatar
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    Colossus getting mad at Magik made perfect sense, and her actions were in character too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    The central conceit of Schism was never going to work as long as the X-books continued to have teenagers fight supervillains. Hell, the story proves Logan wrong by having the kids fight and defeat a Sentinel while he and Scott are arguing.
    Also, the X-men started as a group of teenagers fighting supervillains, and Marvel's most popular character started that way too.

  3. #5508
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    I think a Schism like storyline needed to happen given the direction the x-narrative was heading, however the story we got could of been much more compelling and substantive. The X-men being seen and presented as Cyclops personal army needed to change, there needed to be more pushback and challenging of Scott instead of everyone being made into yes men and women. This is where the dictator Cyclops label came from because he was constantly barking orders and on one was standing up to him. Well Beast was but he was being castigated for it by readers and character assassinated by the writers.
    The prelude to Schism story comes to mind, in the story some unknown/undefined threat is heading to Utopia and the X-men in there entirety are simply standing around waiting for doing nothing but waiting for Scott to direct them. While at the same time some are reflecting on how great a leader he is. You have Xavier, Storm, Logan and Magneto among many more longstanding and powerful X-men in the room and they are being presented as useless and utterly incapable of doing anything without Cyclops telling them what to do and how to do it. It makes a mockery out of the X-men and a lot of those characters especially when there have been numerous stories of said characters saving themselves and the world without Cyclops. When you have a franchise as vast as the X-men with a wide array of characters to focus it down to one singular character at the expense of all others is problematic. So yeah a Schism among the X-men needed to happen, Scott needed to be humbled or challenged or abandoned but something needed to be done. Too many X-men were written out of character as blind followers and not confident strong willed individuals. Xavier allowed himself to be thrown out of his own house then exiled, when he returned he was marginalized/sidelined. Storm never spoke up or challenged Scott. Logan was Cyclops attack dog, Rogue didn't defend herself when Cyclops demoted her to a glorified babysitter after she made the correct choice to let Hope fight and defeat Bastion and save everyone. Instead of acknowledging Rogue's decision he reprimanded her because she dared to defy an order. And on and on. Schism was necessary but the story we got was not thought out well.

  4. #5509
    Astonishing Member Omega Alpha's Avatar
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    The problem is that it made absolutely no sense for that story to happen when the X-men were still in DEFCON 1 mode. The end of Second Coming should have been what was in AvX, with mutants being repowered, or alternatively, do a Schism type of storyline, if they wanted, after AvX ended.

    The "Cyclops is a dictator" complaint is not only completely stupid by what the stories shown- hell, he even presented the Wolverine side with a jet so they could go to Xavier's, and offered to have an election- but it also ignores the basic idea of military hierarchy. The X-men were at war facing the greatest existential threat mutantkind ever faced, and Cyclops was the one who was in charge, not by force, even because he's nowhere near powerful enough to impose it, but because no one else would step up. When you're in a war facing an Holocaust (and mutantkind had two of those in a few years, in Genosha and with Wanda), you don't go around asking everyone about their feelings and voting on every possible decision.

    And in that context, splitting up their forces for ridiculous reasons is just plain stupid.

  5. #5510
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    The problem is that it made absolutely no sense for that story to happen when the X-men were still in DEFCON 1 mode. The end of Second Coming should have been what was in AvX, with mutants being repowered, or alternatively, do a Schism type of storyline, if they wanted, after AvX ended.

    The "Cyclops is a dictator" complaint is not only completely stupid by what the stories shown- hell, he even presented the Wolverine side with a jet so they could go to Xavier's, and offered to have an election- but it also ignores the basic idea of military hierarchy. The X-men were at war facing the greatest existential threat mutantkind ever faced, and Cyclops was the one who was in charge, not by force, even because he's nowhere near powerful enough to impose it, but because no one else would step up. When you're in a war facing an Holocaust (and mutantkind had two of those in a few years, in Genosha and with Wanda), you don't go around asking everyone about their feelings and voting on every possible decision.

    And in that context, splitting up their forces for ridiculous reasons is just plain stupid.
    The thing is that the X-men were always a team of individuals banning together or even a unofficial family not an army. So there should have been no military hierarchy to adhere to. Quite frankly it never should have gotten to the point where Cyclops could just bark orders unopposed. These are strong willed people with dominant personalities, no matter what threats they were facing they wound never allow themselves to be mere foot soldiers in Cyclops's mutant army. Or simply mindlessly go along with whatever Cyclops said. It's not about feelings its about asking questions if Cyclops is ordering you to go on a potential suicide mission while he's chilling back on Utopia with Emma. It's about saying actually Scott I don't agree with that decision or plan or maybe you should go on the mission yourself (written in character a lot of X-men would say exactly that). As far as elections, the issue is that a lot of the X-men were simply sick and tired of Cyclops, Utopia and the whole mutant army mindset so the offer of elections meant nothing. And as you say Cyclops was nowhere powerful enough to enforce his leadership/rule, the X-men followed him out of choice and eventually they had enough and most chose to no longer follow him and he had no power to stop them from leaving even if he wanted to. Things just got to a breaking point and Logan happened to be the one who initiated it.

    Say what you will about Hickman, Krakoa and DOX as a whole, at least it's an ensemble cast and no one single character dominates. And that is all for the better because given the personalities involved most wouldn't stand for it, no matter what threats they were facing collectively. And they wouldn't/shouldn't have stood for it on Utopia either.

  6. #5511
    Astonishing Member Omega Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The tall man View Post
    The thing is that the X-men were always a team of individuals banning together or even a unofficial family not an army. So there should have been no military hierarchy to adhere to.
    They were always a paramilitary group from the start, just with Xavier in charge. And before they weren't facing extinction every week.


    Quote Originally Posted by The tall man View Post
    Quite frankly it never should have gotten to the point where Cyclops could just bark orders unopposed. These are strong willed people with dominant personalities, no matter what threats they were facing they wound never allow themselves to be mere foot soldiers in Cyclops's mutant army. Or simply mindlessly go along with whatever Cyclops said. It's not about feelings its about asking questions if Cyclops is ordering you to go on a potential suicide mission while he's chilling back on Utopia with Emma. It's about saying actually Scott I don't agree with that decision or plan or maybe you should go on the mission yourself (written in character a lot of X-men would say exactly that). As far as elections, the issue is that a lot of the X-men were simply sick and tired of Cyclops, Utopia and the whole mutant army mindset so the offer of elections meant nothing. And as you say Cyclops was nowhere powerful enough to enforce his leadership/rule, the X-men followed him out of choice and eventually they had enough and most chose to no longer follow him and he had no power to stop them from leaving even if he wanted to. Things just got to a breaking point and Logan happened to be the one who initiated it.

    Say what you will about Hickman, Krakoa and DOX as a whole, at least it's an ensemble cast and no one single character dominates. And that is all for the better because given the personalities involved most wouldn't stand for it, no matter what threats they were facing collectively. And they wouldn't/shouldn't have stood for it on Utopia either.

    It's not like there were plenty of mutants appearing in a lot of X-books at the time- Rogue had her own, the New Mutants, X-factor and X-force had their own. There probably should have been another X-men team book, though.

    "Offering elections meant nothing"? Meaning they don't want to debate their ideas for mutantkind? They don't accept defeat?

    You have very curious ideas, to say the least- Cyclops is a dictator, yet he's powerless, and those that oppose him can leave on their own free will at anytime and refuse an election and democratic debates when offered, because that's what dictators do.

    Also, To say Cyclops doesn't risk himself in missions or combat, is quite simply, a blatant and embarrassing lie.

  7. #5512
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    They were always a paramilitary group from the start, just with Xavier in charge. And before they weren't facing extinction every week.





    It's not like there were plenty of mutants appearing in a lot of X-books at the time- Rogue had her own, the New Mutants, X-factor and X-force had their own. There probably should have been another X-men team book, though.

    "Offering elections meant nothing"? Meaning they don't want to debate their ideas for mutantkind? They don't accept defeat?

    You have very curious ideas, to say the least- Cyclops is a dictator, yet he's powerless, and those that oppose him can leave on their own free will at anytime and refuse an election and democratic debates when offered, because that's what dictators do.

    Also, To say Cyclops doesn't risk himself in missions or combat, is quite simply, a blatant and embarrassing lie.
    Meaning they no longer wanted to follow Scott or be an army so they left to restart the school.

    That is how the writers portrayed it until they decided not to. And while he may not have been a dictator in the traditional sense he was certainly the supreme commander/ general. And no other X-man was presented as offering alternatives because reasons.

    How many missions did Cyclops go on when he was sending X-force on kill missions? He put Laura on the team against Logan's wishes and never once did he accompany the team in the field. He give orders for others to kill but he never went out and did the deed himself. What's the adage "never order something to do something you're not willing to do yourself". But all we heard was "Cyclops makes the hard decisions no one else wants to" (as if Storm or Logan can't make hard decisions). And that's another thing, Logan get tons of shit for being a killer. Hank gets shit for being a killer but Scott who was issuing kill orders is seen as brave and making tough/hard/bold decisions. I guess the difference is Logan and Hank got their hands dirty and Scott didn't.

  8. #5513
    Mighty Member Ra-El's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The tall man View Post
    Meaning they no longer wanted to follow Scott or be an army so they left to restart the school.

    That is how the writers portrayed it until they decided not to. And while he may not have been a dictator in the traditional sense he was certainly the supreme commander/ general. And no other X-man was presented as offering alternatives because reasons.

    How many missions did Cyclops go on when he was sending X-force on kill missions? He put Laura on the team against Logan's wishes and never once did he accompany the team in the field. He give orders for others to kill but he never went out and did the deed himself. What's the adage "never order something to do something you're not willing to do yourself". But all we heard was "Cyclops makes the hard decisions no one else wants to" (as if Storm or Logan can't make hard decisions). And that's another thing, Logan get tons of shit for being a killer. Hank gets shit for being a killer but Scott who was issuing kill orders is seen as brave and making tough/hard/bold decisions. I guess the difference is Logan and Hank got their hands dirty and Scott didn't.
    Because if they did that, Cyclops would be featured in every X-Men comic and only Wolverine can do that.

    In Morrison first issue Cyclops mercy kills a mutant, so the act of killing is not strange to him. In Wheadon's run Cyclops literally kills himself for his plan, so putting himself at risk is also not something he is afraid.

    Hank gets shitty because for the last decade almost every writer have made him the most hypocritical character in the franchise, he would do and did worst things than Cyclops, but contrary to Scott he didn't owned it and blamed someone else. Like when after condemning Cyclops for the X-Force he went to join Logan's or when he put the timeline at risk just to spite Cyclops and apparently for some unresolved crush he had on Jean.

  9. #5514
    Astonishing Member Omega Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ra-El View Post
    Because if they did that, Cyclops would be featured in every X-Men comic and only Wolverine can do that.

    In Morrison first issue Cyclops mercy kills a mutant, so the act of killing is not strange to him. In Wheadon's run Cyclops literally kills himself for his plan, so putting himself at risk is also not something he is afraid.

    Hank gets shitty because for the last decade almost every writer have made him the most hypocritical character in the franchise, he would do and did worst things than Cyclops, but contrary to Scott he didn't owned it and blamed someone else. Like when after condemning Cyclops for the X-Force he went to join Logan's or when he put the timeline at risk just to spite Cyclops and apparently for some unresolved crush he had on Jean.
    Exactly. Again, the guy literally killed himself for a plan that involved gambling that the enemy would be interested in resurrecting him And considering the nature of X-force, it's natural that the guy who is the face of mutant kind, and whose powers are not exactly tailor made for a secret team, wpuld be involved, though Scott said to Logan he would lead the team himself if he refused.

  10. #5515
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    Quote Originally Posted by The tall man View Post
    Meaning they no longer wanted to follow Scott or be an army so they left to restart the school.

    That is how the writers portrayed it until they decided not to. And while he may not have been a dictator in the traditional sense he was certainly the supreme commander/ general. And no other X-man was presented as offering alternatives because reasons.

    How many missions did Cyclops go on when he was sending X-force on kill missions? He put Laura on the team against Logan's wishes and never once did he accompany the team in the field. He give orders for others to kill but he never went out and did the deed himself. What's the adage "never order something to do something you're not willing to do yourself". But all we heard was "Cyclops makes the hard decisions no one else wants to" (as if Storm or Logan can't make hard decisions). And that's another thing, Logan get tons of shit for being a killer. Hank gets shit for being a killer but Scott who was issuing kill orders is seen as brave and making tough/hard/bold decisions. I guess the difference is Logan and Hank got their hands dirty and Scott didn't.
    Hank and Logan get shit for being killers because they get on Scott's case for doing things that are no worse than what they have done. Scott is the victim of the double standard not them. Logan is glorified for being a killer.

  11. #5516
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    Quote Originally Posted by The tall man View Post
    The thing is that the X-men were always a team of individuals banning together or even a unofficial family not an army. So there should have been no military hierarchy to adhere to. Quite frankly it never should have gotten to the point where Cyclops could just bark orders unopposed. These are strong willed people with dominant personalities, no matter what threats they were facing they wound never allow themselves to be mere foot soldiers in Cyclops's mutant army. Or simply mindlessly go along with whatever Cyclops said. It's not about feelings its about asking questions if Cyclops is ordering you to go on a potential suicide mission while he's chilling back on Utopia with Emma. It's about saying actually Scott I don't agree with that decision or plan or maybe you should go on the mission yourself (written in character a lot of X-men would say exactly that). As far as elections, the issue is that a lot of the X-men were simply sick and tired of Cyclops, Utopia and the whole mutant army mindset so the offer of elections meant nothing. And as you say Cyclops was nowhere powerful enough to enforce his leadership/rule, the X-men followed him out of choice and eventually they had enough and most chose to no longer follow him and he had no power to stop them from leaving even if he wanted to. Things just got to a breaking point and Logan happened to be the one who initiated it.

    Say what you will about Hickman, Krakoa and DOX as a whole, at least it's an ensemble cast and no one single character dominates. And that is all for the better because given the personalities involved most wouldn't stand for it, no matter what threats they were facing collectively. And they wouldn't/shouldn't have stood for it on Utopia either.
    Frankly, the way you're talking about the X-Men makes it sound like these guys would spend more time arguing amongst themselves than getting anything done. And the extent to which Cyclops dominated the franchise is greatly exaggerated.

  12. #5517
    Smart & Swift & Violent Kitty&Piotr<3's Avatar
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    What tall man said.

    Also, that era was kinda annoying all around. Schism and what came after was a breath of fresh air.
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  13. #5518
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Frankly, the way you're talking about the X-Men makes it sound like these guys would spend more time arguing amongst themselves than getting anything done. And the extent to which Cyclops dominated the franchise is greatly exaggerated.
    The X-men should never be relegated to being yesmen and that's exactly what they were pre Schism. They did not have to become mindless foot soldiers in the name of getting things done. And Cyclops most certainly dominated the franchise, the so called leader and face of all mutantkind. Magneto kneeling before him was beyond cringe inducing. I stand by my opinion that Scott needed to be challenged and pushback of some sort was absolutely necessary. Cyclops was only ever the team field leader and that only meant calling the shots on missions. However making him the undisputed leader of all mutants and effectively giving him Carteblanche to turn the X-men his personal army and have no one challenge him was a bridge to far. Other characters were essentially sabotaged to elevate Cyclops. A properly written Storm would never step back and allow herself to be sidelined. A properly written Logan would never let himself be Cyclops yesman/attack dog. A properly written Xavier would never allow himself to be kicked out of his own house or degraded by Scott and Emma. And a properly written Magneto would never kneel before anyone much less Cyclops. Schism most definitely needed to happen.

  14. #5519
    Mighty Member Ra-El's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The tall man View Post
    The X-men should never be relegated to being yesmen and that's exactly what they were pre Schism. They did not have to become mindless foot soldiers in the name of getting things done. And Cyclops most certainly dominated the franchise, the so called leader and face of all mutantkind. Magneto kneeling before him was beyond cringe inducing. I stand by my opinion that Scott needed to be challenged and pushback of some sort was absolutely necessary. Cyclops was only ever the team field leader and that only meant calling the shots on missions. However making him the undisputed leader of all mutants and effectively giving him Carteblanche to turn the X-men his personal army and have no one challenge him was a bridge to far. Other characters were essentially sabotaged to elevate Cyclops. A properly written Storm would never step back and allow herself to be sidelined. A properly written Logan would never let himself be Cyclops yesman/attack dog. A properly written Xavier would never allow himself to be kicked out of his own house or degraded by Scott and Emma. And a properly written Magneto would never kneel before anyone much less Cyclops. Schism most definitely needed to happen.
    Considering that both Storm and Magneto continue to work on Utopia, I would say that Schism didn't solve any of those issues.

    It only served to make a lot of characters look worst, since whatever Cyclops may have done, he didn't destroyed a entire town like Wolverine's X-Force did, and Beast was more than happy to work with him even after have called Cyclops out for creating a X-Force team.

  15. #5520
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    Quote Originally Posted by The tall man View Post
    The X-men should never be relegated to being yesmen and that's exactly what they were pre Schism. They did not have to become mindless foot soldiers in the name of getting things done. And Cyclops most certainly dominated the franchise, the so called leader and face of all mutantkind. Magneto kneeling before him was beyond cringe inducing. I stand by my opinion that Scott needed to be challenged and pushback of some sort was absolutely necessary. Cyclops was only ever the team field leader and that only meant calling the shots on missions. However making him the undisputed leader of all mutants and effectively giving him Carteblanche to turn the X-men his personal army and have no one challenge him was a bridge to far. Other characters were essentially sabotaged to elevate Cyclops. A properly written Storm would never step back and allow herself to be sidelined. A properly written Logan would never let himself be Cyclops yesman/attack dog. A properly written Xavier would never allow himself to be kicked out of his own house or degraded by Scott and Emma. And a properly written Magneto would never kneel before anyone much less Cyclops. Schism most definitely needed to happen.
    I can't help but feel that your sentiment was shared by the people who over-corrected with Schism and everything that came after.

    The narrative context is important though, you're leaving out a lot of stuff in order to vilify Scott. Does the fact that there were around only 200 mutants not matter? Does the fact that Scott made sure to ask for the support of his teammates not matter? Does Scott's willingness to put himself on the frontlines not matter? Does the fact that after Schism, when the team split, Scott made it clear that his group would continue to help them not matter? Does the fact that Scott's faction continued to protect humans and mutants alike not matter? The X-Men were never Scott's personal army, that's such a ridiculous statement. It was clear that anyone was welcome to leave at any moment, Cyclops could hardly stop any of them. How and why would the characters have challenged Scott?

    Schism didn't need to happen, Hope's arrival should've heralded the resurgence of mutantkind so Scott could (and would) loosen the X-Men's emergency status. Then the characters could branch out while keeping Utopia as a hub. This way AvX could be avoided as well.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

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