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  1. #1576
    Astonishing Member jwatson's Avatar
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    Just to be clear i'm not agreeing with him but given the posters avatar and exactly what they said word for word the post for me was very meta. ^_^
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.

  2. #1577
    mutant and proud ermac's Avatar
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    I don't understand how Storm is still referred to as one of the great leaders of the X-Men by the fanbase.

    When she led the team on the 80s, she made a lot of questionable choices and the team practically disbanded. I won't even start on how her leadership of the Morlocks ended up for them...

    The Gold team also dismantled under her watch. Jean almost died on their first mission and Colossus defected, while Iceman had one of his first breakdowns.

    Since the 2000s, she led the X-Treme (which was a proactive non-aligned-with-Xavier team) and came back to the School to call out Cyke for being proactive and "non-aligned-with-Xavier's" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    I also think she could (in story) have done a lot for the mutants as Queen of Wakanda, Avenger or Fantastic Four teammate.

    Much of this is credited by a lack of understanding of her character by writers and the inconsistent protrayal of her motives... Still, IN STORY, we don't have much reasons to see her as a great leader.
    Kind of hoping to see Madame Frost, Ambassador of Krakoa, humiliating Mr. President of Brazil during a UN meeting

    I'm reading: Batman - Daredevil - East of West - Friendly Neighborhood Spiderman - Immortal Hulk - Runaways

  3. #1578
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ermac View Post
    I don't understand how Storm is still referred to as one of the great leaders of the X-Men by the fanbase.

    When she led the team on the 80s, she made a lot of questionable choices and the team practically disbanded. I won't even start on how her leadership of the Morlocks ended up for them...

    The Gold team also dismantled under her watch. Jean almost died on their first mission and Colossus defected, while Iceman had one of his first breakdowns.

    Since the 2000s, she led the X-Treme (which was a proactive non-aligned-with-Xavier team) and came back to the School to call out Cyke for being proactive and "non-aligned-with-Xavier's" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    I also think she could (in story) have done a lot for the mutants as Queen of Wakanda, Avenger or Fantastic Four teammate.

    Much of this is credited by a lack of understanding of her character by writers and the inconsistent protrayal of her motives... Still, IN STORY, we don't have much reasons to see her as a great leader.
    dang, she isnt so great when you break it down like that. I think nostalgia (coming in at the rise of Xmen popularity) and the fact that she was the second major leader with a long stint of about 6/7 years (not counting her brief exit when she lost her powers) propel her. Her tenure as leader since she returned to the X-men has been horrible and damaged her

  4. #1579

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    Her stints as leader were fine in the 80's, 90's and early 2000s. If you are counting some of those setbacks listed above as a negative then every X Leader is quite crappy. They have all had failures and losses during their tenures. However, you will get no argument from me that since 2006ish or so till now, she's been crap. Which is unfortunate. I think we all know she can and has been a great leader, so we know she could get back there. But no one in the X office cares. Too busy dumping on the character. But that's what you get when you are token.
    Last edited by Saturius; 07-26-2019 at 02:19 PM.

  5. #1580
    mutant and proud ermac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturius View Post
    However, you will get no argument from me that since 2006ish or so till now, she's been crap. Which is unfortunate. I think we all know she can and has been a great leader, so we know she could get back there. But no one in the X office cares. Too busy dumping on the character.
    I'm not sure she has been well written - even once - since Claremont. Too bad she was left off the team on good runs such as Morrison, Whedon, PAD or Carey.
    Kind of hoping to see Madame Frost, Ambassador of Krakoa, humiliating Mr. President of Brazil during a UN meeting

    I'm reading: Batman - Daredevil - East of West - Friendly Neighborhood Spiderman - Immortal Hulk - Runaways

  6. #1581
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    Taking in the last page and half worth of posts on the topic, I feel that the nostalgia of it all is worth noting. She rose to fame with the team. While at the height of popularity we came to know her as a self assured woman with full control over her body and power. Throughout the years (after Claremont’s first run) teams changed, ideologies shifted and the major characters adapted with the times. Adapting her with the times means that she needs to become more self-aware. A more self-aware Storm would require a deep examination of the life she lives. As she’s been written, she’s devoted to the mutant cause her entire career. It’s hard for a woman like Storm to be written in character, self-aware and in furtherance of the white mutant majority. If Storm is perpetually the X-man, never the individual that shows reverence for where she comes from, but always beholden to a mutant identity that is predominantly and unapologetically white, then her voice as the “other” will be silenced. Nostalgia as the go to becomes almost a guarantee when faced with the reality of the work it would take to actually bring this woman up to date with the times and still keep the elements of her character that resonated most with her fans. The Storm that made her presence known and dared someone to get in her way would be disgusted with the white supremacy on the board. She would undoubtedly flip the table in defiance of the game and the rules that were never meant for her to win. A woman that galavants around NYC for most of her adult life, claims to know and love her roots, but can’t be bothered to actually track down her father’s family in New Jersey isn’t one that fully embraces who she is. As it’s already been said, most of this can be chalked up to the inconsistency of her many writers. E en then they were consistently reverting to the nostalgia of it all in avoidance of an issue they weren’t willing to tackle. As for the in universe reasoning for her poor decisions, her history with the X-men tells us she’d rather be perpetually the X-man so as not to feel left out.

  7. #1582
    Fire and life incarnate! phoenixzero23's Avatar
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    Leadership is so overrated. I love characters like Jean, Cyclops or Storm who have lead teams but that is not enterely who they are. That doesn't apply only to them, everybody wants their favorite characters to lead and some people even get angry when you say that being leader is not the most important thing ever for the character.

    There are many badass and interesting characters on the X-men and there are some boring ones. They will keep being badass or boring if they lead or not. Being a leader doesn't make anybody special because everybody has done it at some point, ordering other people shouldn't be the most important thing for a character, their developments and personal experiences are what matters, not being positioned over others.
    They all end up doing the same, living the same drama, I really don't get what is so special.

  8. #1583

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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenixzero23 View Post
    Leadership is so overrated. I love characters like Jean, Cyclops or Storm who have lead teams but that is not enterely who they are. That doesn't apply only to them, everybody wants their favorite characters to lead and some people even get angry when you say that being leader is not the most important thing ever for the character.

    There are many badass and interesting characters on the X-men and there are some boring ones. They will keep being badass or boring if they lead or not. Being a leader doesn't make anybody special because everybody has done it at some point, ordering other people shouldn't be the most important thing for a character, their developments and personal experiences are what matters, not being positioned over others.
    They all end up doing the same, living the same drama, I really don't get what is so special.
    Love this. This is how I felt about Psylocke when she was a Butterfly wizard. You can make any character awesome, just write them well and think outside the box.
    Is always confused.....

    My Name is Psylocke, "Stabby stabby pew pew!"

    My Psylocke stories at Fanfiction.net (ignore the editing, it's bad on purpose) https://www.fanfiction.net/~tazirai
    My better edited versions on Comicvine. Just check profile and my forum posts in fan fiction section. http://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/tazirai/

  9. #1584
    Astonishing Member RachelGrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tazirai View Post
    Love this. This is how I felt about Psylocke when she was a Butterfly wizard. You can make any character awesome, just write them well and think outside the box.
    This is my same feeling for Emma. I loved her best when she made teaching her priority in Generation X. Emma was a girl who spent her childhood dreaming of being a teacher, and she defied her very abusive father and left home penniless so she could pursue the education she wanted to. Even while young, Emma wasn't a saint but she had a good heart, and she even used that kidnapping money to go to Empire State University and get her Education Degree with a minor in Business.

    At some point I would love to see Emma actively teaching again. Or show some flashbacks of her teaching in Genosha, and I would love it if everyone finds out that she was actually really happy just being a teacher in Genosha.

    To me the House of M reality where everyone was given their dream was telling for Emma, she wasn't a CEO, she wasn't a superhero leader, she was a child therapist with a successful practice in New York City, planning to get married to Scott and have children of her own. Emma's grand dream in the House of M reality was to help children!

  10. #1585
    Peter Scott/Scott Peter SpiderClops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ermac View Post
    I'm not sure she has been well written - even once - since Claremont. Too bad she was left off the team on good runs such as Morrison, Whedon, PAD or Carey.
    Here's an unpopular opinion. If only a single writer can get the character "right", then there's something wrong with the character and concept.
    Quote Originally Posted by terrancejameson View Post
    Taking in the last page and half worth of posts on the topic, I feel that the nostalgia of it all is worth noting. She rose to fame with the team. While at the height of popularity we came to know her as a self assured woman with full control over her body and power. Throughout the years (after Claremont’s first run) teams changed, ideologies shifted and the major characters adapted with the times. Adapting her with the times means that she needs to become more self-aware. A more self-aware Storm would require a deep examination of the life she lives. As she’s been written, she’s devoted to the mutant cause her entire career. It’s hard for a woman like Storm to be written in character, self-aware and in furtherance of the white mutant majority. If Storm is perpetually the X-man, never the individual that shows reverence for where she comes from, but always beholden to a mutant identity that is predominantly and unapologetically white, then her voice as the “other” will be silenced. Nostalgia as the go to becomes almost a guarantee when faced with the reality of the work it would take to actually bring this woman up to date with the times and still keep the elements of her character that resonated most with her fans. The Storm that made her presence known and dared someone to get in her way would be disgusted with the white supremacy on the board. She would undoubtedly flip the table in defiance of the game and the rules that were never meant for her to win. A woman that galavants around NYC for most of her adult life, claims to know and love her roots, but can’t be bothered to actually track down her father’s family in New Jersey isn’t one that fully embraces who she is. As it’s already been said, most of this can be chalked up to the inconsistency of her many writers. E en then they were consistently reverting to the nostalgia of it all in avoidance of an issue they weren’t willing to tackle. As for the in universe reasoning for her poor decisions, her history with the X-men tells us she’d rather be perpetually the X-man so as not to feel left out.
    me is confuse.
    Quote Originally Posted by phoenixzero23 View Post
    Leadership is so overrated. I love characters like Jean, Cyclops or Storm who have lead teams but that is not enterely who they are. That doesn't apply only to them, everybody wants their favorite characters to lead and some people even get angry when you say that being leader is not the most important thing ever for the character.

    There are many badass and interesting characters on the X-men and there are some boring ones. They will keep being badass or boring if they lead or not. Being a leader doesn't make anybody special because everybody has done it at some point, ordering other people shouldn't be the most important thing for a character, their developments and personal experiences are what matters, not being positioned over others.
    They all end up doing the same, living the same drama, I really don't get what is so special.
    More like people need to realize that being a leader is just a role like any other. The rebel, the cool guy, the nerd, the jokester, the heart, the serious one... There are some characters that fit the role and there are some that don't.

    And it most certainly is not synonymous with being the main character.
    “Indifference and neglect often do much more damage than outright dislike.”
    -Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore, Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix

  11. #1586
    Mighty Member LordUltimus's Avatar
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    Reed Richards should be more involved in mutant politics.

  12. #1587
    Fire and life incarnate! phoenixzero23's Avatar
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    The problem is that if the F4 or the Avengers actually helped with mutants issues people would complain that they are robbing the X-men of their stories and that the X-men should be doing those things.
    Both the F4 and the Avengers are groups who have had mutant member and usually do what they can to help them (except on AvX but that is one story)

  13. #1588
    Fantastic Member Super-Cyke's Avatar
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    The Jean/Cyke/Wolvie love triangle makes all three characters less likable

  14. #1589
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super-Cyke View Post
    The Jean/Cyke/Wolvie love triangle makes all three characters less likable
    I don't know if that's all that unpopular. It was the worst thing that could have happened to all 3 of them.

  15. #1590
    Incredible Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenixzero23 View Post
    The problem is that if the F4 or the Avengers actually helped with mutants issues people would complain that they are robbing the X-men of their stories and that the X-men should be doing those things.
    Both the F4 and the Avengers are groups who have had mutant member and usually do what they can to help them (except on AvX but that is one story)
    Not to mention how Spider-Man has gotten slandered as a menace in the media, Hulk was hunted down by the army, Thing was treated as a freak, etc. I suppose that's just the complication that comes with having the X-Men set in the same universe as Avengers, Fantastic Four, and Spider-Man, which I imagine Stan Lee treated as pretty separate at the start in terms of themes.

    I'm also puzzled as to why Reed perceived the response he was getting as an "excuse," as if attempting to understand the motivations of hating someone's identity is bad in of itself. Nothing wrong with wanting to understand human motivation more if it helps contribute towards how we can build towards a better future if you ask me.

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