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  1. #1651
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    Here's one: Neither Scott nor Logan is the greatest leader that the X-Men have had in the last few years. Neither is Kitty, neither is Ororo, neither is Emma. It's Jean, from both X-Men Blue and X-Men Red, or Magneto.
    Jean led one team for eleven issues against one opponent, and getting help from the Avengers to boot. Afterwards, she suffered one of the worst defeats the X-men ever had in Disassembled. Havok has a better track record than she does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sin Nick View Post
    Unpopular opinions... aight then.

    How about Wolverine being a better X-leader than Cyclops as he didn't as many students killed while under his leadership.y.
    That requires you to ignore Uncanny X-force, because every single decision Logan made there, without exception, turned out to be a failure that came back to haunt him and the team. Also, the fact he didn't do much leadership at all in WatXM, just letting other people do his job for him while he was avenging/fighting ninjas/getting booze.

    Also, ignores the fact that Scott lost more students, but he unquestionably and undeniably saved more lives, including Logan's, many, many times. It's like saying a general with dozens of battles under his his belt is worse than another one that only commanded a few because the latter lost less men.

    Also, Storm has been shown to be resentful of Scott quite a few times, and slept with Logan both before and after Schism, so her opinion is hardly proof of anything.

    Basically, your opinion only works if you ignore 56 years of X-men history to focus on Schism, and even then that would make it very debatable.

  2. #1652
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    Jean led one team for eleven issues against one opponent, and getting help from the Avengers to boot. Afterwards, she suffered one of the worst defeats the X-men ever had in Disassembled. Havok has a better track record than she does.
    That's also why I mentioned that I wasn't explicitly just talking about X-Men Red. I'm referring to teen Jean in All New X-Men and potentially more relevantly since they were on their own, X-Men Blue.

    Plus they both kind of did their thing in Extermination, and adult Jean performed well in Disassembled until Nate pulled the Life Seed card.
    Jean beat Nate in Disassembled. Then he pulled out his Deus Ex Machina.

    "I'll always love you, Jean Grey." "I'll always love you too, Scott Summers." - Scott Summers and Jean Grey

  3. #1653
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    Jean beat Nate in Disassembled. Then he pulled out his Deus Ex Machina.
    In other worlds, she lost, badly, in part because she underestimated her opponent's capacities, and had the entire X-men at her adversary's mercy as puppets for months . Still, regarding Blue, they hardly did all that much.

  4. #1654
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    In other worlds, she lost, badly, in part because she underestimated her opponent's capacities, and had the entire X-men at her adversary's mercy as puppets for months . Still, regarding Blue, they hardly did all that much.
    X-Men Blue did plenty, including repairing the entire time stream.

    And no. They didn't lose because she (as well as Ororo and Kitty, mind) underestimated their opponent, they lost because their opponent had an item that was believed lost (the last time it was seen was when it reset Angel to factory settings) and amplified his powers 100 fold. They were literally up against insurmountable odds that they couldn't prepare for because they couldn't have known about it.

    "I'll always love you, Jean Grey." "I'll always love you too, Scott Summers." - Scott Summers and Jean Grey

  5. #1655

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    Jean led one team for eleven issues against one opponent, and getting help from the Avengers to boot. Afterwards, she suffered one of the worst defeats the X-men ever had in Disassembled. Havok has a better track record than she does.



    That requires you to ignore Uncanny X-force, because every single decision Logan made there, without exception, turned out to be a failure that came back to haunt him and the team. Also, the fact he didn't do much leadership at all in WatXM, just letting other people do his job for him while he was avenging/fighting ninjas/getting booze.

    Also, ignores the fact that Scott lost more students, but he unquestionably and undeniably saved more lives, including Logan's, many, many times. It's like saying a general with dozens of battles under his his belt is worse than another one that only commanded a few because the latter lost less men.

    Also, Storm has been shown to be resentful of Scott quite a few times, and slept with Logan both before and after Schism, so her opinion is hardly proof of anything.

    Basically, your opinion only works if you ignore 56 years of X-men history to focus on Schism, and even then that would make it very debatable.
    I see your opinion and I respect, but I'm sticking with mine. My ranking of X-leaders would be...

    1. Storm
    2. Rogue
    3. Wolverine
    4. Cable
    5. Cyclops/90's Havok

  6. #1656
    Astonishing Member PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    X-Men Blue did plenty, including repairing the entire time stream.

    And no. They didn't lose because she (as well as Ororo and Kitty, mind) underestimated their opponent, they lost because their opponent had an item that was believed lost (the last time it was seen was when it reset Angel to factory settings) and amplified his powers 100 fold. They were literally up against insurmountable odds that they couldn't prepare for because they couldn't have known about it.
    She also lost 2/7th of her team in Blue, a 28.5% fatality rate. And that's if you don't include Jeen herself dying, and psionically bringing herself back to life.
    "It is the truest mark of heroism: to give your life aware that those you save will never know."

  7. #1657
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    She also lost 2/7th of her team in Blue, a 28.5% fatality rate. And that's if you don't include Jeen herself dying, and psionically bringing herself back to life.
    Jimmy didn't die, he left on his own. And Bloodstorm got killed when they were off the clock - not something she's responsible for.

    "I'll always love you, Jean Grey." "I'll always love you too, Scott Summers." - Scott Summers and Jean Grey

  8. #1658
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sin Nick View Post
    I see your opinion and I respect, but I'm sticking with mine. My ranking of X-leaders would be...

    1. Storm
    2. Rogue
    3. Wolverine
    4. Cable
    5. Cyclops/90's Havok
    Sure you can stick with it, but this is a favorite characters list, clearly. There's really no reasonable criteria to put Wolverine, Rogue or Havok ahead of Cyclops.

  9. #1659
    Mighty Member powerpax's Avatar
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    I would agree re: Krakoa and the Genosha/Utopia mistake in theory, except I feel they're doing something at Krakoa that they (to my recollection - I wasn't much of an avid reader during the period) never did on Utopia or at Genosha - initiated a proactive trade war and infrastructure to cement their place in the world. It wasn't enough to settle off the coast of progressive San Fran and make glitzy PR moves that don't resonate outside a few sympathetic enclaves. Direct action is required, and now the mutants are a much more substantial threat to the established order. Not just a cause célèbre.

    My UOs(?):

    • I will always like Madelyne more than Jean, it doesn't matter how many corny latter-day stories Maddy gets.
    • Planet X was the best and most brutal ending for Magneto. It inflames fandom to this day but that Xorneto reveal - and the subsequent, vicious takedown of aging radicals - was one of the greatest X-Men moments in history. It was the last time I never really saw a twist coming. I'm fine with where he is today as a character, but I always will believe it was him in Morrison's run and they should never have claimed it wasn't.
    Last edited by powerpax; 07-31-2019 at 06:40 PM.

  10. #1660
    Peter Scott/Scott Peter SpiderClops's Avatar
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    Comparing a guy's leadership skills who's been in that position for years in-universe and decades in real time to two people who were in-charge for a fraction of his time combined. Seems fair. And at the same time ignoring and excusing their failures while only highlighting Scott's failures even though he was unquestionably in way worse situation than them.

    I get that this is unpopular opinion, but seriously.
    “Indifference and neglect often do much more damage than outright dislike.”
    -Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore, Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix

  11. #1661
    Astonishing Member CRaymond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    I have more.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    PLEASE share. These are wonderful.
    Thanks Harp! My computer hiccuped after I wrote a crapload combining the Szardos family with the Maximoffs. It eschews paternal mutant and Evolutionary influences for an entirely maternal secret origin. In any case, I need to cooldown and sleep on it if you want the details tomorrow.

    Moving forward. You want to hear about combining the Tanaka & Yoshida families? Sunfire & Opal Tanaka? Daken & Silver Samurai? Lady Deathstrike & Matsuo Tsurayaba? Karma & Kwannon? That's just Japan, Vietnam, and Madripoor. I got a bunch of British ideas, and a huge one about combining mutant slave-state Genosha with Mojoverse.
    Last edited by CRaymond; 07-31-2019 at 07:00 PM.

  12. #1662
    Incredible Member kevinism's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    Jean led one team for eleven issues against one opponent, and getting help from the Avengers to boot. Afterwards, she suffered one of the worst defeats the X-men ever had in Disassembled. Havok has a better track record than she does.




    That requires you to ignore Uncanny X-force, because every single decision Logan made there, without exception, turned out to be a failure that came back to haunt him and the team. Also, the fact he didn't do much leadership at all in WatXM, just letting other people do his job for him while he was avenging/fighting ninjas/getting booze.

    Also, ignores the fact that Scott lost more students, but he unquestionably and undeniably saved more lives, including Logan's, many, many times. It's like saying a general with dozens of battles under his his belt is worse than another one that only commanded a few because the latter lost less men.

    Also, Storm has been shown to be resentful of Scott quite a few times, and slept with Logan both before and after Schism, so her opinion is hardly proof of anything.

    Basically, your opinion only works if you ignore 56 years of X-men history to focus on Schism, and even then that would make it very debatable.

    I think you're missing the point of this thread

  13. #1663
    Astonishing Member PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevinism View Post
    I think you're missing the point of this thread
    If the point is "it's just an opinion", I disagree with it.

    "The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion of 'my opinion just as good as your knowledge'." - Isaac Asimov.

    "The validity of an opinion is the giver's ability to defend it." - Socrates.
    "It is the truest mark of heroism: to give your life aware that those you save will never know."

  14. #1664
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    Thanks Harp! My computer hiccuped after I wrote a crapload combining the Szardos family with the Maximoffs. It eschews paternal mutant and Evolutionary influences for an entirely maternal secret origin. In any case, I need to cooldown and sleep on it if you want the details tomorrow.

    Moving forward. You want to hear about combining the Tanaka & Yoshida families? Sunfire & Opal Tanaka? Daken & Silver Samurai? Lady Deathstrike & Matsuo Tsurayaba? Karma & Kwannon? That's just Japan, Vietnam, and Madripoor. I got a bunch of British ideas, and a huge one about combining mutant slave-state Genosha with Mojoverse.
    Hell yeah. Let's hear them all. These are great. I have a few. Should I create a thread for it all so it doesn't get lost in this one?

  15. #1665
    Astonishing Member CRaymond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GodfatherIV View Post
    Hell yeah. Let's hear them all. These are great. I have a few. Should I create a thread for it all so it doesn't get lost in this one?
    Sure. We complain all the time about too many mutants. Maybe we’d have fun making room by infinity warping them all together.

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