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  1. #2611
    Ultimate Member Ambaryerno's Avatar
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    Case in point: Vanessa was fridged in Deadpool 2. Not because of the killer's motivation (he wasn't even out to kill her; her death was entirely collateral damage when he was actually trying to kill Wade). But because the only purpose her death in the story served was as a motivation for Wade for the rest of the film. This was a WRITER'S decision.

    However, while it may not sit well with fans Nat was NOT fridged in End Game. The writers viewed her sacrifice as the culmination of her own character arc. While it factored into the plot for Clint and Banner, her death was still the product of her own development since her appearance in Iron Man 2. Once again, the motivation of the CHARACTERS involved in her death played no part in it, it was entirely about the WRITING.
    Still hoping for that Helix Reunion...

    The New X-Men: Can't let you grow up because you make everyone look old. But we can sure as @#$% mindlessly kill you off for shock value!


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  2. #2612
    Ultimate Member Ambaryerno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    No. I'm saying how it applies out of story as well. Morrison did not have Jean killed solely for the purpose of hurting Scott, and never wrote it as such.
    Except that's NOT what the quoted line says. You're talking entirely about XORN'S intent. You don't mention the writers there AT ALL.
    Still hoping for that Helix Reunion...

    The New X-Men: Can't let you grow up because you make everyone look old. But we can sure as @#$% mindlessly kill you off for shock value!


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  3. #2613
    Astonishing Member PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ambaryerno View Post
    Case in point: Vanessa was fridged in Deadpool 2. Not because of the killer's motivation (he wasn't even out to kill her; her death was entirely collateral damage when he was actually trying to kill Wade). But because the only purpose her death in the story served was as a motivation for Wade for the rest of the film. This was a WRITER'S decision.

    However, while it may not sit well with fans Nat was NOT fridged in End Game. The writers viewed her sacrifice as the culmination of her own character arc. While it factored into the plot for Clint and Banner, her death was still the product of her own development since her appearance in Iron Man 2. Once again, the motivation of the CHARACTERS involved in her death played no part in it, it was entirely about the WRITING.
    Both correct. Vanessa in DP2 was a fridging: she was killed almost solely for the purpose of making Wade hurt.

    Nat's was not, because it served several different purposes, including her character arc.

    On the vein, Jean's was NOT. Her death was both an editorial mandate, a reason for Wolverine to use lethal force to kill the main bad guy (which is gross, but not a fridging), and a setup piece for Morrison's Here Comes Tomorrow.
    "It is the truest mark of heroism: to give your life aware that those you save will never know."

  4. #2614
    Astonishing Member Soulsword323's Avatar
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    Taylor's Red had its problems, but I'm very happy he was the one handling Jean's return. Comparing X-Men: Red, to Rosenberg's handling of Cyclops and Wolverine's return in Uncanny made me appreciate Taylor even more.

  5. #2615
    Astonishing Member PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulsword323 View Post
    Taylor's Red had its problems, but I'm very happy he was the one handling Jean's return. Comparing X-Men: Red, to Rosenberg's handling of Cyclops and Wolverine's return in Uncanny made me appreciate Taylor even more.
    Unfortunately that isn't saying much. Rosenberg's run was awful for just about every character in it, top to bottom.
    "It is the truest mark of heroism: to give your life aware that those you save will never know."

  6. #2616
    Astonishing Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    Unfortunately that isn't saying much. Rosenberg's run was awful for just about every character in it, top to bottom.
    Rosenberg's run was a disappointment, but I think I was really let down more by X-Men Red; I think that was mostly because I was aware of Rosenberg's work and expected it to be mediocre, while Taylor got hyped up to me just for the book to dip in quality over time.
    Does it need doing?
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  7. #2617
    Extraordinary Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulsword323 View Post
    Taylor's Red had its problems, but I'm very happy he was the one handling Jean's return. Comparing X-Men: Red, to Rosenberg's handling of Cyclops and Wolverine's return in Uncanny made me appreciate Taylor even more.
    Red was going to be Rosenberg's book but he thought Jean shouldn't lead yet.

    Like I said Red is exactly what Jean needed on her return

    Quote Originally Posted by Ambaryerno View Post
    Except that's NOT what the quoted line says. You're talking entirely about XORN'S intent. You don't mention the writers there AT ALL.
    Yes. Usually the fridging is on the writers, not the characters. And it served as a life changing for Cyclops

    Quote Originally Posted by Ambaryerno View Post
    Case in point: Vanessa was fridged in Deadpool 2. Not because of the killer's motivation (he wasn't even out to kill her; her death was entirely collateral damage when he was actually trying to kill Wade). But because the only purpose her death in the story served was as a motivation for Wade for the rest of the film. This was a WRITER'S decision.

    However, while it may not sit well with fans Nat was NOT fridged in End Game. The writers viewed her sacrifice as the culmination of her own character arc. While it factored into the plot for Clint and Banner, her death was still the product of her own development since her appearance in Iron Man 2. Once again, the motivation of the CHARACTERS involved in her death played no part in it, it was entirely about the WRITING.
    Very good read.

    Natasha choose to sacrifice herself, that was her own moment

    Jean died on a very ridiculous way
    Last edited by spirit2011; 09-14-2019 at 05:31 PM.
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  8. #2618
    Astonishing Member Soulsword323's Avatar
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    I think people are too harsh on Red personally. I didn't like a number of things (balancing the cast, Magneto helmets, and the way Nova was handled), but I thought Taylor understood Jean's character, and didn't do anything to harm the character. It was a strong reintroduction for the character IMO

    While I like Jean's Red costume, I think its easily Asrar's weakest design thus far (I'm sure this isn't super unpopular, but whatever). When comparing it to his designs for Psylocke and Storm, and the rest of the Red team (outside of Laura and Gabby), it just doesn't measure up. Hopefully he gets a chance to do something better for her in the future.

  9. #2619
    Astonishing Member PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    Red was going to be Rosenberg's book but he thought Jean shouldn't lead yet.

    Like I said Red is exactly what Jean needed on her return



    Yes. Usually the fridging is on the writers, not the characters. And it served as a life changing for Cyclops


    Very good read.

    Natasha choose to sacrifice herself, that was her own moment

    Jean died on a very ridiculous way
    HOW Jean died and WHY Jean died are two different things.

    HOW Jean died was Xorneto doing something that no Magneto type character has ever done before and likely will again. That's dumb, I fully admit that.

    But that's not the WHY.

    As far as Cyclops goes, you calling an effect a cause. Jean didn't die solely for Morrison to make him hurt.
    "It is the truest mark of heroism: to give your life aware that those you save will never know."

  10. #2620
    Extraordinary Member Tycon's Avatar
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    But aren’t people always saying that Morrison killed Jean so Emma could be in the spotlight? Fridging isn’t just killing a character for the development of another, it’s specifically a woman being killed for a male character’s development.

  11. #2621
    Astonishing Member PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulsword323 View Post
    I think people are too harsh on Red personally. I didn't like a number of things (balancing the cast, Magneto helmets, and the way Nova was handled), but I thought Taylor understood Jean's character, and didn't do anything to harm the character. It was a strong reintroduction for the character IMO

    While I like Jean's Red costume, I think its easily Asrar's weakest design thus far (I'm sure this isn't super unpopular, but whatever). When comparing it to his designs for Psylocke and Storm, and the rest of the Red team (outside of Laura and Gabby), it just doesn't measure up. Hopefully he gets a chance to do something better for her in the future.
    I don't think people are too harsh. Many Jean fans call it the best Jean has ever been written, and one of the best pieces of X-lore in the entire history. And while it was above average compared to how awful Blue and especially Gold were, it has a great deal of flaws. One of those (in my opinion) is that while it may have gotten a good Jean away from battle, it writes her as being almost inept in actual conflict, and heavily dependent on others, which shouldn't be the case.
    "It is the truest mark of heroism: to give your life aware that those you save will never know."

  12. #2622
    Astonishing Member PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    But aren’t people always saying that Morrison killed Jean so Emma could be in the spotlight? Fridging isn’t just killing a character for the development of another, it’s specifically a woman being killed for a male character’s development.
    There's no reason fridging can't work with all genders and relationship types. It's definition isn't inherently female-to-male.
    "It is the truest mark of heroism: to give your life aware that those you save will never know."

  13. #2623
    Extraordinary Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    But aren’t people always saying that Morrison killed Jean so Emma could be in the spotlight? Fridging isn’t just killing a character for the development of another, it’s specifically a woman being killed for a male character’s development.
    People always have better ways to say things than me, frustrating.

    This is what I think, Jean died so Scott could move on without having Jean around.

    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    HOW Jean died and WHY Jean died are two different things.

    HOW Jean died was Xorneto doing something that no Magneto type character has ever done before and likely will again. That's dumb, I fully admit that.

    But that's not the WHY.

    As far as Cyclops goes, you calling an effect a cause. Jean didn't die solely for Morrison to make him hurt.
    Not only hurt, bu tmake him go out of him confort zone and then move him on the ship he liked
    Last edited by spirit2011; 09-14-2019 at 05:51 PM.
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  14. #2624
    Fantastic Member davetvs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    There's no reason fridging can't work with all genders and relationship types. It's definition isn't inherently female-to-male.
    Its definition is literally inherently female-to-male. It's a shortening of "Women in Refrigerators" which specifically refers to the trope of female characters being killed bc manpain or for some other reason focusing on furthering the story of a male.

  15. #2625

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    Quote Originally Posted by davetvs View Post
    Its definition is literally inherently female-to-male. It's a shortening of "Women in Refrigerators" which specifically refers to the trope of female characters being killed bc manpain or for some other reason focusing on furthering the story of a male.
    Exactly this. Fridging was specifically spotlighted as a problem because, while there's nothing inherently wrong with one character dying to further the development of another, it overwhelmingly happens to female characters for the benefit of male characters, and the manner in which it happens tends to be a lot more gruesome and/or sexualized than when male characters get killed off.

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