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  1. #2596
    Extraordinary Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    Then she WASN'T FRIDGED. She was killed, but it was NOT A FRIDGING.

    What you're basically saying is this:

    Person A) They killed themselves.
    Person B) Yes. It was a homicide.
    Person A) No, it was a suicide.
    Person B) No, they killed somebody, so it's a homicide.
    Person A) But the person they killed was themselves. That's a suicide.
    Person B) It might me a suicide, but it was also a homicide.

    You're completely misusing the term. Green Arrow finding his girlfriend stuffed in a fridge solely for the purpose of making him feel emotional pain is a fridging. Jean dying in battle at the hand of Xorneto because he pulled a last second absurd power-up ISN'T.
    The reasons are different, sure Xorn didn't killed Jean because of Scott. But also she was killed to clean the way for a new couple and make Scott sad so he could leave her behind and start a new life.
    Even if isn't fridging (I still think it is) it is very much sexist
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  2. #2597
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    Hard disagree on Frank Miller. He is the ultimate example of edge being disguised as depth.
    Post-DKR Frank Miller, i would agreed. Before that Miller was a pretty good writer, his Daredevil, Wolverine and Batman: Year One were great (although he did have help for the first 2)n after that though, yeah is mostly edgy stuff.
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  3. #2598
    Fantastic Member davetvs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Claremont's original run, warts and all (and there are a lot of warts and weirdness) is this for me. And I'd include the original run of New Mutants in that as well. But Morrison's has become a very close second. Helps that it is largely self contained and not bogged down by convoluted franchising.

    Before browsing these boards, i thought it was a given that Jean was awesome in NXM. She became one of my favorite X-Men because of it. Yeah Scott cheated on her and Morrison said he identified with Scott during a break up with his ex-girlfriend or whatever, but Morrison also wrote Logan into the script to call Scott out for whining and not giving Jean a chance to understand and that he should be grateful for what he has with her. Emma calls out Jean for having a dark side, but it's also EMMA doing that and she's not an un-biased source. And Jean having a dark side and flaws should come as no surprise to people. Phoenix was not originally anything other than Jean, and the story was better because of it.
    This! I agree with this entire post, other than Claremont's run being better because Morrison's is #1 for me. I honestly can't believe there are people who hate it, but I guess it was different enough and shook up the status quo enough to make people uncomfortable. I'm personally a big fan of stories like that and IA it made Jean my favorite character.

  4. #2599
    Benefactor / Malefactor H-E-D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    For what i read Jessie was supposed to die earlier, but they changed their minds at some point.
    He was going to die at the end of season one, then two things happened. One, the writer's strike, so they had to end the season early. Secondly, and more importantly, they were so impressed by Aaron Paul's performance that they knew they had to keep him around.

  5. #2600
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    having Jean being humiliated and then fridge sure doesn't mean that Morrison didn't like Jean LOL
    yeah sure.

    I think Morrison wrote a OK Jean, she lacked more nuance and good moments. She was far away from being a breakout of the run. Both simonson and Claremont did much better, Taylor also did a better job
    From what I can tell, it is some Jean diehards that don't like the nuance and good moments that she had in the book just because he didn't put her on a pedestal. Jean is the heart of the X-Men, the Team Mom, but she is also firey passion and power (both positive and negative). Ororo notes on this in DPS when Jean is fighting Emma, Jean is "beautiful and terrible" all at once. She is by far the most benevolent force in X-Men mythos, but also the most terrifying woman on the planet. That dichotomy is what makes her so awesome. Emma makes snide remarks towards Jean that we're not meant to take at full face value, but even Jean notes that Emma is correct in her assessment that she isn't always pacifistic. Because Emma was on the receiving end of such attacks at least twice, even though she had it coming the first time.

    She definitely was the break out of the run, or at least one of them. A writer does not make Jean the MVP of the Cassandra Nova arc and the ultimate redeemer and vanquisher of the Big Bad/savior of the universe if he doesn't at least have some affection for her. Nor does have a character like Logan come to her defense by telling Scott to get over himself and fix his marriage and accept his share of the blame for why it is going through a rough patch. Bad things happening to her (and others) is just what a good writer does to characters in a franchise that thrives on controversy and melodrama the way the rest of us need oxygen. "Humiliation" is also not the correct word to use. She is never humiliated in a way to make the readership laugh at her, her husband cheats on her and we're meant to sympathize with all parties. Who on Earth comes away from this and thinks "haha, sucks to be you Jean! It's what you deserve for being so perfect!"? It seems to mostly be Jean fans who feel that way, which seems very odd to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    Lazy websites like TV Tropes and bad twitter pundits have made people think 'death of any character I like' = 'fridging.' It doesn't. Jean was not fridged. Jean died in battle against an arch-villain at the conclusion of her arc.
    Said arch villain needing to take her out specifically because the Phoenix was around to purge him. And then she came back 150 years later and killed him then, and then altered time to save the universe. Here Comes Tomorrow, the epilogue to the run, was effectively her story. How humiliating.

    Marvel keeping her dead afterward is on them, not Morrison. I'm not bothered by her absence to much, because barring a handful of things here and there, the X-men franchise was effectively dead to me between Morrison's departure and Hickman's arrival anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by davetvs View Post
    This! I agree with this entire post, other than Claremont's run being better because Morrison's is #1 for me. I honestly can't believe there are people who hate it, but I guess it was different enough and shook up the status quo enough to make people uncomfortable. I'm personally a big fan of stories like that and IA it made Jean my favorite character.
    Morrison's was the first X-Men run I ever read from start to finish, though it had long been collected in trade by that point. It being so accessible and self contained helps with it being so strong, and it cemented Jean as one of my favorites. I didn't know that people viewed it so negatively for her and it seems so different from what I read. Maybe it's the lack of use on Marvel editorial's part afterwards that people dislike and are retroactively applying it to this run?

    Claremont's is better to me mostly because it's longer, with much more classic content. it is of course very dated and some storylines don't hold up well at all, but overall it's probably oen of my favorite mainstream superhero runs (including New Mutants). Morrison is, after all, riffing on a lot of stuff Claremont did first, particularly with Byrne. I think Claremont, Morrison and Hickman are going to be my holy trinity of X-Men runs.

  6. #2601
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by H-E-D View Post
    He was going to die at the end of season one, then two things happened. One, the writer's strike, so they had to end the season early. Secondly, and more importantly, they were so impressed by Aaron Paul's performance that they knew they had to keep him around.
    Oh i know that, i was just saying that as an example of the writers not hating, they like Paul's performance so much that they kept him around for the betterment of the show.

    P.S: Breaking Bad is awesome, more people should wacth it
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  7. #2602
    Extraordinary Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davetvs View Post
    This! I agree with this entire post, other than Claremont's run being better because Morrison's is #1 for me. I honestly can't believe there are people who hate it, but I guess it was different enough and shook up the status quo enough to make people uncomfortable. I'm personally a big fan of stories like that and IA it made Jean my favorite character.
    It didn't made me uncomfortable, I just think it was mostly bad writing and things I saw before. I liked Cassandra Nova and the first issues, but the run doesn't hold
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  8. #2603
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    Taylor didnt even write a good book. it was a slow solo book disguised as a team book with little action in which heroes posed heroically in group shots and said inspirational things whilte "fighting" a Cassandra Nova that was an allegory for twitter trolls, with ideas such as giving antitelepathy helmets to everybody, getting the avengers involved, the writer pushing his own creation even if it didnt make much sense (team abomination) and many other rather unintelligent or corny things.

  9. #2604
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    X-Men Red has the same weakness than everything done by Tom Taylor, honestly he is better suited by short fluff-like pieces that are done in one, he isn't very good with long term arcs.
    "Wow. You made Spider-Man sad, congratulations. I stabbed The Hulk last week"
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  10. #2605
    Astonishing Member PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lurkerforyears View Post
    Taylor didnt even write a good book. it was a slow solo book disguised as a team book with little action in which heroes posed heroically in group shots and said inspirational things whilte "fighting" a Cassandra Nova that was an allegory for twitter trolls, with ideas such as giving antitelepathy helmets to everybody, getting the avengers involved, the writer pushing his own creation even if it didnt make much sense (team abomination) and many other rather unintelligent or corny things.
    Hard to disagree with this. Jean fans should find Taylor's run patronizing, not endearing.
    "It is the truest mark of heroism: to give your life aware that those you save will never know."

  11. #2606
    Extraordinary Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    Hard to disagree with this. Jean fans should find Taylor's run patronizing, not endearing.
    Tom Taylor was confort food. Also he actually made people like Jean, that is a win in my book
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  12. #2607
    Astonishing Member PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    Tom Taylor was confort food. Also he actually made people like Jean, that is a win in my book
    For her first solo book since coming back, why not expect more? Why not have Jean defeat Cassandra through telepathic combat, setting it up with careful planning and foresight to bridge the gap between their powers? For all the talk of Jean not getting to show her powers, she didn't get to show them in Red for the most part.
    "It is the truest mark of heroism: to give your life aware that those you save will never know."

  13. #2608
    Extraordinary Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    For her first solo book since coming back, why not expect more? Why not have Jean defeat Cassandra through telepathic combat, setting it up with careful planning and foresight to bridge the gap between their powers? For all the talk of Jean not getting to show her powers, she didn't get to show them in Red for the most part.
    That was exactly wheat Jean needed. Anyway it would be ignored anyway, so I don't see why more would be good. Taylor used a big cast for very few issues too
    It was a team book, everyone did a bit on their own.
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  14. #2609
    Ultimate Member Ambaryerno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    Fine.

    So Xorneto killed Jean for the sole purpose of hurting Scott (and for no other reason)?

    If that isn't the case, IT ISN'T FRIDGING.
    I'm trying to get straight what you're saying. Are you saying that Fridging has to do with the KILLER'S motivation in-story?

    If that's what you're saying, that's bullshit. Character motivation is MEANINGLESS. WRITERS fridge characters. It's entirely about the THEIR motivations. What the character who DOES the killing thinks about it doesn't mean a THING.
    Still hoping for that Helix Reunion...

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  15. #2610
    Astonishing Member PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ambaryerno View Post
    I'm trying to get straight what you're saying. Are you saying that Fridging has to do with the KILLER'S motivation in-story?

    If that's what you're saying, that's bullshit. Character motivation is MEANINGLESS. WRITERS fridge characters. It's entirely about the THEIR motivations. What the character who DOES the killing thinks about it doesn't mean a THING.
    No. I'm saying how it applies out of story as well. Morrison did not have Jean killed solely for the purpose of hurting Scott, and never wrote it as such.
    "It is the truest mark of heroism: to give your life aware that those you save will never know."

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