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  1. #5626
    Astonishing Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kisinith View Post
    You aren't wrong, but you are leaving out a bit of context, at least with regards to the board.

    As much as there were some very vocal Cyclops supporters, the Cyclops detractors were also super active and even more over the top. Damn near every time Cyclops was even mentioned certain posters came out of the woodwork to complain about the character, how he was the sum of all evil and that his very presence infected the X-Men, and that he was personally holding back other more worthy characters. For a while there, especially during the revolution era, every time an issue of Uncanny came out the thread discussing it would balloon to 40 or 50 pages of bickering. At least once a week a thread was started on how Cyclops was the worst character ever, responsible for everything bad that had ever happened for the past 30 years and was probably plotting to put babies on spikes.
    Sometimes the topics had nothing to do with Cyclops and someone would just start it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kisinith View Post
    Within the Cyclops appreciation thread, things were generally a lot more laid back, strange... very strange at times, but far less over the top in what they wanted for the character.


    Just kidding, I know what you mean.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kisinith View Post
    The very worst really seemed to be between some of the Storm fans and some of the Cyclops fans, I remember reading those threads and wanting to grab some popcorn while watching the carnage.
    Yeah, the first... disagreement, lets say, that I had on here was with a very zealous Storm fan. Ultimately, it turned out that we had simply misunderstood the others' points.

    I can barely remember why there was so much animosity between the two groups back then.
    Does it need doing?
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    Then it will be done.

  2. #5627
    Smart & Swift & Violent Kitty&Piotr<3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    You do know Morrison was the one who killed off Jean and had her give her blessing to Scott and Emma's relationship.
    Yes.

    And what are you talking about with writers giving Jean heat for being a cold goddess? They never treated her like that.
    From the maestro himself:

    Quote Originally Posted by Morisson
    The way I saw it was that Jean and Scott had become remote. For me, the great emotional moment for Scott and Jean was when they ran out to die together on the moon during the Phoenix Saga. After Jean died, Scott ended up with a lot of other women. Scott was very attractive to women even though he didn't know it and I wanted to play around with that. Since he was becoming emotionally remote from Jean, because she was becoming more and more godlike, it just seemed he would naturally fall into the arms of someone more emotionally connected, which Emma actually was. Yes, it was a kind of adultery, but at the same time Jean wasn't being his wife anymore. I just felt that the spark between them had died out and it was time to give Scott someone else.

    And there were more, which isn't surprising, as everyone after was taking cues from Morrison, as they should have. Now in today's world, we don't acknowledge Morrison in regards to Jean because it had her embracing the Phoenix, acknowledging that Scott had moved on, readying herself to take over for Charles, and etc growth and pain. All that is now reversed for...dishes...because it doesn't fit with the nostalgic dynamic. lol

    Just making the point that the nostalgia does hold at least Jean back, if not both.
    "Cyclops loves wilted roses because they remind him of dead redheads."
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  3. #5628
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    Yes.



    From the maestro himself:




    And there were more, which isn't surprising, as everyone after was taking cues from Morrison, as they should have. Now in today's world, we don't acknowledge Morrison in regards to Jean because it had her embracing the Phoenix, acknowledging that Scott had moved on, readying herself to take over for Charles, and etc growth and pain. All that is now reversed for...dishes...because it doesn't fit with the nostalgic dynamic. lol

    Just making the point that the nostalgia does hold at least Jean back, if not both.
    Morrison outright says in that quote that Scott was the one becoming emotionally remote not Jean. I don't see anyone else blaming Jean for the dissolution of the relationship. One of the first things Whedon did in his run was have Logan chew Scott out for it. Jean, by contrast, only became more and more sanctified the longer she stayed dead.

  4. #5629
    Smart & Swift & Violent Kitty&Piotr<3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Morrison outright says in that quote that Scott was the one becoming emotionally remote not Jean. I don't see anyone else blaming Jean for the dissolution of the relationship. One of the first things Whedon did in his run was have Logan chew Scott out for it. Jean, by contrast, only became more and more sanctified the longer she stayed dead.
    Yep, becoming more sanctified instead of advancing her story with an Emma, so to speak, of her own.
    "Cyclops loves wilted roses because they remind him of dead redheads."
    -Gail

  5. #5630
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    Yep, becoming more sanctified instead of advancing her story with an Emma, so to speak, of her own.
    Which is a completely different argument from what you initially said, which is that writers were blaming Jean for Scott's lack of development and the relationship ending.

    This is pretty much what others here are talking about.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 10-24-2020 at 12:22 AM.

  6. #5631
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    Yep, becoming more sanctified instead of advancing her story with an Emma, so to speak, of her own.
    None of this matters. Morrison wrote in his book superfoods that nearly every idea he was edited and removed while working on new X-men to the point that he swore off marvel for 20 years. He did a zoom about the green lantern recently and when asked about X-men he said he hated writing it and he hates that his butchered run is still being ripped off to this day. He also repeated that he never plans to work with marvel again and thinks they are a toxic company. We don’t know what Morrison wanted to do with X-men cause marvel wouldn’t let him do it

  7. #5632
    Smart & Swift & Violent Kitty&Piotr<3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Which is a completely different argument from what you initially said, which is that writers were blaming Jean for Scott's lack of development and the relationship ending.

    This is pretty much what others here are talking about.
    She was "sanctified" to like 2 characters, mainly Wolverine lol. Otherwise, the narrative from folks like Quesada, Fraction, Whedon, Alonso (who only likes one X-character), you name it, was that Jean was holding Cyclops back from being the ALPHA he needed to be.

    And, again regarding Morisson's quote: saying they broke off because Jean was emotionally unconnected and not being his wife is putting the blame on her. He very straightforwardly says it was "time to give him someone else".

    These quotes are all fine and dandy. It was a good story and it rings true. Now when they try to walk that story back, just for the sake of nostalgia and fear of not doing the same thing that has always been done, excepting the time she was in the refrigerator, it is literally holding Jean Grey back.
    "Cyclops loves wilted roses because they remind him of dead redheads."
    -Gail

  8. #5633
    Incredible Member davetvs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantor View Post
    None of this matters. Morrison wrote in his book superfoods that nearly every idea he was edited and removed while working on new X-men to the point that he swore off marvel for 20 years. He did a zoom about the green lantern recently and when asked about X-men he said he hated writing it and he hates that his butchered run is still being ripped off to this day. He also repeated that he never plans to work with marvel again and thinks they are a toxic company. We don’t know what Morrison wanted to do with X-men cause marvel wouldn’t let him do it
    That's so disappointing to hear. Morrison's run is my absolute favorite of any comic, ever. I hope we at least get to know what his actual plans were but what we did get is top-tier work. His Jean was amazing, he made her my favorite character.

  9. #5634
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    She was "sanctified" to like 2 characters, mainly Wolverine lol.
    And just about every X-Man that wasn't Emma.

    Otherwise, the narrative from folks like Quesada, Fraction, Whedon, Alonso (who only likes one X-character), you name it, was that Jean was holding Cyclops back from being the ALPHA he needed to be.
    Care to provide any proof that backs up this claim?

    And, again regarding Morisson's quote: saying they broke off because Jean was emotionally unconnected and not being his wife is putting the blame on her.
    Morrison: "Since he was becoming emotionally remote from Jean". And in case you forgot, Morrison is the one who had Scott, not Jean, cheat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post

    These quotes are all fine and dandy. It was a good story and it rings true. Now when they try to walk that story back, just for the sake of nostalgia and fear of not doing the same thing that has always been done, excepting the time she was in the refrigerator, it is literally holding Jean Grey back.
    You're talking as if all Jean has done is be Scott's girlfriend ever since she came back. She's done stuff independent of him as well.

  10. #5635
    Incredible Member Kingdom X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    You're talking as if all Jean has done is be Scott's girlfriend ever since she came back. She's done stuff independent of him as well.
    Yeah we’ve really only seen glimpses of their relationship under Hickman. She’s 100% being underutilized in this era but I don’t think it’s because of Scott.

  11. #5636
    Smart & Swift & Violent Kitty&Piotr<3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    And just about every X-Man that wasn't Emma.



    Care to provide any proof that backs up this claim?



    Morrison: "Since he was becoming emotionally remote from Jean". And in case you forgot, Morrison is the one who had Scott, not Jean, cheat.



    You're talking as if all Jean has done is be Scott's girlfriend ever since she came back. She's done stuff independent of him as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Aaron
    I think Jean's death freed Scott to finally become his own man; to fully step out from behind the shadow of Xavier and to forge his own path for the X-Men.
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Fraction

    To me, Emma is the love of Scott's life. Jean was the great love of his youth, but to become a man, he needed to move on and he has.
    Again, there were more, including from former X-Men editor, Nick Lowe. No, I am not going to find every snide comment ever. I'm obviously not making them up lol.

    https://emmafrostfiles.com/2011/06/x...-relationship/


    https://emmafrostfiles.com/2009/11/x...eptember-2009/

    "Jean kept Scott from being ALPHA" was basically the underlying thesis statement of basically everything between The end of New X-Men 151 and Bendis. This isn't hardly in question at all, really. As I said, Cyke creators and fans were REALLY into it SUPER HARD. Magneto was practically on his knees worshiping him for being so manly. Lolol

    It is these kinds of popular and common opinions about Cyclops and the touchiness around his manhood that makes the character a negative, withering, choking factor on Jean Grey.

    As for Jean's current role, she has been good away over in X-Force. Would be cool if she was actually part of XoS, but not every story is hers. The mom stuff is a drag. And the dishes? Lololololol
    Last edited by Kitty&Piotr<3; 10-24-2020 at 09:43 AM.
    "Cyclops loves wilted roses because they remind him of dead redheads."
    -Gail

  12. #5637
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Morrison outright says in that quote that Scott was the one becoming emotionally remote not Jean. I don't see anyone else blaming Jean for the dissolution of the relationship. One of the first things Whedon did in his run was have Logan chew Scott out for it. Jean, by contrast, only became more and more sanctified the longer she stayed dead.
    ...he says Scott was becoming emotionally remote because jean was becoming more godlike... Scott was remote because of what jean was doing... that does sound blaming jean...

  13. #5638
    Embrace the Fluff FluffyCyclopsRLZ's Avatar
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    Loving it. Apparently, we're now talking about an alternate universe in which Jean had to tell Elaine Grey that her husband and boyfriend screwing while she was doing the dishes was the all new, all different status quo. Anyone care to post a link?

  14. #5639
    Militantly Indifferent Kisinith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anyajenkins View Post
    ...he says Scott was becoming emotionally remote because jean was becoming more godlike... Scott was remote because of what jean was doing... that does sound blaming jean...
    He says they were both becoming remote. His quote was placing the blame for their trouble on both characters. I don't like defending Morrison as I'm not a fan of his X-Men run but lets at least acknowledge what he actually said.

  15. #5640
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    I don't understand the great need to "blame" one or the other for how they behaved and the choices they were given.

    They were both going through their own personal issues and found themselves distanced from each other.
    Yes, Scott turned to Emma for "counselling" but only because she made herself available, while Jean was learning to cope with her powers growing in ways she had not experienced before.

    I don't know what Morrison actually intended (nor do I really care at this point, truth to tell...) without editorial interference but thank the Goddess they did because it might have actually been far, far worse for the characters involved.
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