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  1. #6736
    Mighty Member Rang10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    The original intention was for Jean to be dead...end of story. I think with Rachel...as Scott's and Jean's alternate reality daughter with powers comparable to Jean...she would be a good replacement...and maybe even Maddie and Nathan would not have gone through all the crap they did.
    Shooter wanted Jean dead because Byrne drew people on a planet that should be not have people. That is the reason Shooter wanted her dead, it wasnt like he thought the dead was something special.
    I think the original writer of X-factor wanted Jean back and the next writer, Weezy, was also alright with that decision. Claremont wanted Jean's sister, Rachel simply doesn't fit the thematics of the book

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam-X View Post
    Here's the thing - I would have been fine - if they brought Jean back the way they did. Cocoon on the bottom of the lake - found by the Avengers, revived by the Fantastic Four - and Jean joins X-Factor.

    And leave the Phoenix Force completely out of it. We just get Jean back - maybe with amplified Telepathy/TK powers during the brief moment the Phoenix Force touched Jean's mind, so that Jean can be used very effectively.

    But Phoenix Force. Gone. Forever.
    I think the intention of getting rid of Phoenix permanently, but on comics nothing is permanent.

    So it is funny to me people saying X should stay dead, because to this only Gwen abd uncle Ben stayed dead

    The whole problem of Phoenix is that it go overused too much in bad stories in only 15 years.
    Last edited by Rang10; 02-28-2021 at 02:29 PM.

  2. #6737

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rang10 View Post
    I think the intention of getting rid of Phoenix permanently, but on comics nothing is permanent.
    So it is funny to me people saying X should stay dead, because to this only Gwen abd uncle Ben stayed dead
    The whole problem of Phoenix is that it go overused too much in bad stories in only 15 years.
    I agree - and the thing is - I typically don't want characters to stay dead - because these characters are typically someone's favorite - and in the right hands, could unfold a great story.

    However, I don't consider the Phoenix Force a character. So I wouldn't mind that staying dead, or at the very least gone.

    I mean - we've seen the tremendous size of the Marvel Universe Galaxy - with everything from Brood, Shi'ar, Kree, Skrulls - just to name a few out there - why does the Phoenix Force keep coming back to Earth?

    Why not go to one of the TRILLIONS of other inhabited planets.
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  3. #6738
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    Prior to what happened in Genosha, Ultron slaughtered Slorenia, with little fanfare, AFAIK. Between the Sentinels (who turned on humanity twice during the first run of X-Men), and Ultron, the biggest threat might be AI (and humanity's inability to control it).

  4. #6739
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davetvs View Post
    I honestly think the world shrugging its shoulders about what happened to Genosha makes the marginalized group metaphor even more accurate. Human rights atrocities happen all the time, all over the world, without anyone so much as batting an eyelash if the people are "different" from them.
    That is not necessarily true for example in Myannar suspect stuff like that is happening, There is people speaking out against it. The same thing for the uighurs in China. What makes Marvel and mutants feel so depressing is that US is the main country that speak out against this stuff, So when countries like the US and modern countries in Europe isn't doing stuff against hate if feels like the whole world is racist.

    Some People(not talking this poster) never seem to understand that in these topics in the US hate is sort of regional and it a lot more nuanced, In country like Russia or China they are government practices/laws that make hate against minorities kind of thing for some people, Then some countries that have mass unrest and bad crap like Genocide happens there. The real world varied in treatment of minorities, Marvel seems to have a universal global hatred of mutants where killing them is an option, something Krakoa is completely justified in a world where the US had Sentinel program and was abducting and killing mutants and had laws with mandatory vaccines for mutants. That is what happen pre Krakoa, the X-men disappeared, mutants were being hunted down in freaking US and the most of the world tried biological genocide the mutant race via vaccine.

    Then people have the nerve to compare Krakoa to Hilter as Humans didn't try to wipe out mutants recently. And I don't even have to talk about the Master Mold in space either
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 03-01-2021 at 12:36 AM.

  5. #6740
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    That is not necessarily true for example in Myannar suspect stuff like that is happening, There is people speaking out against it. The same thing for the uighurs in China. What makes Marvel and mutants feel so depressing is that US is the main country that speak out against this stuff, So when countries like the US and modern countries in Europe isn't doing stuff against hate if feels like the whole world is racist.
    Mostly, what they can do is speaking out against it. Concretely? Not much…

    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Some People(not talking this poster) never seem to understand that in these topics in the US hate is sort of regional and it a lot more nuanced, In country like Russia or China they are government practices/laws that make hate against minorities kind of thing for some people, Then some countries that have mass unrest and bad crap like Genocide happens there. The real world varied in treatment of minorities, Marvel seems to have a universal global hatred of mutants where killing them is an option, something Krakoa is completely justified in a world where the US had Sentinel program and was abducting and killing mutants and had laws with mandatory vaccines for mutants. That is what happen pre Krakoa, the X-men disappeared, mutants were being hunted down in freaking US and the most of the world tried biological genocide the mutant race via vaccine.
    But it hasn’t been always the case. Things were much more interesting before these mass persecutions and when mutants weren’t even a political subject. Stories were much more varied. It wasn’t “mutant=good”, “human=bad”…

    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Then people have the nerve to compare Krakoa to Hilter as Humans didn't try to wipe out mutants recently. And I don't even have to talk about the Master Mold in space either
    And there weren’t these kind of discussions: “the bad” were the villains and ”the good” were those who oppose them. It was just about the behaviour and the values… There wasn’t an idea of race, which is distateful. I really wonder what is Marvel’s agenda here… or is it just about the money…

  6. #6741
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    That is not necessarily true for example in Myannar suspect stuff like that is happening, There is people speaking out against it. The same thing for the uighurs in China. What makes Marvel and mutants feel so depressing is that US is the main country that speak out against this stuff, So when countries like the US and modern countries in Europe isn't doing stuff against hate if feels like the whole world is racist.

    Some People(not talking this poster) never seem to understand that in these topics in the US hate is sort of regional and it a lot more nuanced, In country like Russia or China they are government practices/laws that make hate against minorities kind of thing for some people, Then some countries that have mass unrest and bad crap like Genocide happens there. The real world varied in treatment of minorities, Marvel seems to have a universal global hatred of mutants where killing them is an option, something Krakoa is completely justified in a world where the US had Sentinel program and was abducting and killing mutants and had laws with mandatory vaccines for mutants. That is what happen pre Krakoa, the X-men disappeared, mutants were being hunted down in freaking US and the most of the world tried biological genocide the mutant race via vaccine.

    Then people have the nerve to compare Krakoa to Hilter as Humans didn't try to wipe out mutants recently. And I don't even have to talk about the Master Mold in space either
    But to act like mutants have clean hands is wrong.

    Magneto and the BoEM took over Santo Marco...and on his way out the door Magneto left a Nuke to wipe out the X-Men and everyone there.
    As well...Magneto destroyed the Russian city of Varykino by creating a volcano under it.
    Apocalypse's attack on NYC during Fall of The Mutants.
    The Mutant Massacre carried out buy Sinister and the Marauders
    Shaw's responsibility in building and selling Sentinels that were used to capture/kill mutants.
    And most recently Beast's responsibility in the genocide in Terra Verde.

    And all these people have positions of responsibility in the Krakoan government.

  7. #6742
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    But to act like mutants have clean hands is wrong.

    Magneto and the BoEM took over Santo Marco...and on his way out the door Magneto left a Nuke to wipe out the X-Men and everyone there.
    As well...Magneto destroyed the Russian city of Varykino by creating a volcano under it.
    Apocalypse's attack on NYC during Fall of The Mutants.
    The Mutant Massacre carried out buy Sinister and the Marauders
    Shaw's responsibility in building and selling Sentinels that were used to capture/kill mutants.
    And most recently Beast's responsibility in the genocide in Terra Verde.

    And all these people have positions of responsibility in the Krakoan government.
    True. But with the exception of Beast, all these guys have performed less if not zero atrocities since the X-Men have reign them in to their side.

  8. #6743
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will Evans View Post
    True. But with the exception of Beast, all these guys have performed less if not zero atrocities since the X-Men have reign them in to their side.
    True...but it says something about putting people who committed those actions and are unrepentant into positions of power in your government.

  9. #6744
    Mighty Member Rang10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will Evans View Post
    True. But with the exception of Beast, all these guys have performed less if not zero atrocities since the X-Men have reign them in to their side.
    Less atrocities, but they are still betraying x-men

    Apocalypse killed mutants and was responsible for other mutants being killed.

    Sinister is going against Krakoa laws and betraying krakoa

    Mastermind already screwing over krakoa too, same for Omega red

  10. #6745
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    But to act like mutants have clean hands is wrong.
    Who cares? Mutants don't need the moral high ground they were pushed to point were basically forced to team up with their villains as means of survival. They rather be around these mass murders than the mass murders who want to kill mutants. If humans don't view all the mutants the same the "good " mutants wouldn't have to team up with "bad" mutants. When it is about your survival you will the help you can get.

    They are people in the Krakoa government who aren't good people, That is true of all governments. That is maybe the most human thing about Krakoa. And as you were told Krakoa has taken all of those big bad mass murders but them on the island away from humans AND force them to follow a set of rules the main one being "Don't kill humans". So all those mass murderers aren't out here mass-murdering, Krakoa has kept them in check. While on the other human forces have constantly attack mutants on Krakoa so who is really the bad guy? Now.

    If Humans would leave mutants alone on their island it would be peaceful, Krakoa isn't trying to expand or conquer, They just are trying to have their endless raves and wait for humanity to destroy themselves or mostly become mutants.
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 03-01-2021 at 09:27 AM.

  11. #6746
    Astonishing Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Who cares? Mutants don't need the moral high ground they were pushed to point were basically forced to team up with their villains as means of survival. They rather be around these mass murders than the mass murders who want to kill mutants. If humans don't view all the mutants the same the "good " mutants wouldn't have to team up with "bad" mutants. When it is about your survival you will the help you can get.

    They are people in the Krakoa government who aren't good people, That is true of all governments. That is maybe the most human thing about Krakoa. And as you were told Krakoa has taken all of those big bad mass murders but them on the island away from humans AND force them to follow a set of rules the main one being "Don't kill humans". So all those mass murderers aren't out here mass-murdering, Krakoa has kept them in check. While on the other human forces have constantly attack mutants on Krakoa so who is really the bad guy? Now.

    If Humans would leave mutants alone on their island it would be peaceful, Krakoa isn't trying to expand or conquer, They just are trying to have their endless raves and wait for humanity to destroy themselves or mostly become mutants.



    None of those things are humans problems, If Krakoa self destruct that works for humans, I am not seeing an issue. they aren't any dead humans
    Agreed in fact what they have done is pretty impressive, they have managed to get some of the main menaces to humanity in check and at the same time create a space in which mutants can develop and choose to be happy and change or keep going on a bad path. The actual scenario assures the X-men will be the first people to deal with them if they get back to their bad deeds, not humans or humanity.

    From all the marvel groups, the X-men have always seek not only to contain the "bad mutants" or to have the "high ground" but to seek to give them a chance if they are willing to change, they are one of the few heros groups that don´t think of themselves infallible or perfect and their own inperfection makes them more willing to give it a chance to others. One of the main examples is the first Avengers vs X-men story, in which they defend Magneto from the Avengers and want to keep him safe, because he´s now one of their own and have seen him try to change and when Magneto decides to go to his second trial they also support him, that´s just awesome,the first time I read it I was wowed by their honestly and nobility, because no one else would have risked themselves for him that way and they did so anyway and this only made Magneto respect them more than he already did, be grateful, hand himself over to keep them safe and try to change for real. This is so rare in comics.

    This doesn´t mean they are blind to reality or that they really believe Sinister, Omega, Apocalypse, Shadow King, et all will change their ways if they don´t have any intention of doing so but they can see the good that can come from making them agree to a set of rules that keeps them from doing harm to others in practice, especially those who have no way of defending themselves from them.
    Last edited by Lucyinthesky; 03-01-2021 at 09:40 AM.
    "The time for subtlety is passing. Now is the time for change." [New Mutants (Vol. 1) #38]

  12. #6747
    Mighty Member Rang10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Who cares? Mutants don't need the moral high ground they were pushed to point were basically forced to team up with their villains as means of survival. They rather be around these mass murders than the mass murders who want to kill mutants. If humans don't view all the mutants the same the "good " mutants wouldn't have to team up with "bad" mutants. When it is about your survival you will the help you can get.

    They are people in the Krakoa government who aren't good people, That is true of all governments. That is maybe the most human thing about Krakoa. And as you were told Krakoa has taken all of those big bad mass murders but them on the island away from humans AND force them to follow a set of rules the main one being "Don't kill humans". So all those mass murderers aren't out here mass-murdering, Krakoa has kept them in check. While on the other human forces have constantly attack mutants on Krakoa so who is really the bad guy? Now.

    If Humans would leave mutants alone on their island it would be peaceful, Krakoa isn't trying to expand or conquer, They just are trying to have their endless raves and wait for humanity to destroy themselves or mostly become mutants.
    Mutants totally needs a moral higher ground. Some of the villains mtants had the capacity to kill millions.

    Many governments on the word is possible vote out the bad people, Krakoa doesn't has that possibility.

    We already saw that krakoa has plans to conquer the world via economical chaos

  13. #6748
    Astonishing Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    They not doing anything other goverments of earth or even Tony Stark and Reed Richards have already done, do commerce on a global scale. The only difference is they meant to seek to tackle those institutions that will seek to destroy them just for being mutants, that´s just self defense not a wish to conquer everybody else.
    Last edited by Lucyinthesky; 03-01-2021 at 09:48 AM.
    "The time for subtlety is passing. Now is the time for change." [New Mutants (Vol. 1) #38]

  14. #6749
    Incredible Member Odd Rödney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam-X View Post
    The Phoenix Force should have remained dead with UXM #137. And be done with it.
    I don't disagree, but I'd like for Jean to be resurrected as the final action of the Phoenix.
    Pull List: X-Men - X-Men: Legends - X-Force - X-Factor - S.W.O.R.D - New Mutants - Marauders - Hellions - Excalibur - Demon Days - Children of the Atom - Wolverine - Wolverine: Black White & Blood - Deadpool - Cable

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Can we stop calling Jen "Hulk?"

  15. #6750
    Mighty Member Kingdom X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rang10 View Post
    Less atrocities, but they are still betraying x-men

    Apocalypse killed mutants and was responsible for other mutants being killed.

    Sinister is going against Krakoa laws and betraying krakoa

    Mastermind already screwing over krakoa too, same for Omega red
    Haven’t they imprisoned Omega Red at least twice at this point? That story is currently unfolding but I believe that they’re doing their best to handle him.

    There are always going to be mutants and humans who do bad things. Humans get a bad rap in X-Men comics because it’s not uncommon to see government-sanctioned violence, which is more systemic. So far the Krakoan government has been able to keep it’s villains under control or at least respond accordingly when a mutant civilian is doing wrong. So far their biggest hiccup isn’t any former villains, it’s Beast.

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