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  1. #5866

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    Quote Originally Posted by psylurker View Post
    I always thought he worked very well when Louise Simonson was writing New Mutants and X-Factor, and working around Larry Hama's stories and various Wolverine minis and appearances, directly referencing them in the main book. He also produced amazing stories with Jim Lee as co-writer. And a couple of decades later, he referenced Grant Morrison's work a number of times in X-Treme X-Men.

    What writers did he show inability to work with you're referring to exactly?
    Yeah, Claremont did fine to great with collaboration in this regard. The only notable exception was the original X-Factor concept which was dictated from editorial, which essentially destroyed his DPS and his Maddie story(which was already a compromise to begin with since editorial made him kill Jean in the first place!). Honestly I stand by him on that one.
    Let the flames destroy all but that which is pure and true!

  2. #5867
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    The Quiet council is an absolute dumpster fire of contradictions. The lack of dedicated focus, consistent portrayal and overall tone leaves this aspect of Krakoa feeling like a god damn game of scrabble played by blind people, except written with the consistency of Wolverine's past. You've got people like Shaw and Emma acting like nation Elites, Apocalypse acting like and being treated he's god king royalty and then you've got jean and Storm who barely feel like their station is any more than it once was.


    In some stories they're hilariously inefficient, personable, snippy and bureaucratic, while in others they're incredibly detached, alien and inhumane. Like how do you reconcile the people that Jean, Storm, kitty, and Kurt are with some of the really out there policies that the Council puts forward?


    It's like the Illuminati, except we're given sparse looks into their decisions and their decisions go all over the place. And that just can't work effectively without staining certain characters.

  3. #5868
    Incredible Member Kingdom X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZephyrSurf View Post
    The Quiet council is an absolute dumpster fire of contradictions. The lack of dedicated focus, consistent portrayal and overall tone leaves this aspect of Krakoa feeling like a god damn game of scrabble played by blind people, except written with the consistency of Wolverine's past. You've got people like Shaw and Emma acting like nation Elites, Apocalypse acting like and being treated he's god king royalty and then you've got jean and Storm who barely feel like their station is any more than it once was.


    In some stories they're hilariously inefficient, personable, snippy and bureaucratic, while in others they're incredibly detached, alien and inhumane. Like how do you reconcile the people that Jean, Storm, kitty, and Kurt are with some of the really out there policies that the Council puts forward?


    It's like the Illuminati, except we're given sparse looks into their decisions and their decisions go all over the place. And that just can't work effectively without staining certain characters.
    Totally agree and really well put. I really think we could have used a council-focused book to ground them.

  4. #5869
    Astonishing Member Omega Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZephyrSurf View Post
    The Quiet council is an absolute dumpster fire of contradictions. The lack of dedicated focus, consistent portrayal and overall tone leaves this aspect of Krakoa feeling like a god damn game of scrabble played by blind people, except written with the consistency of Wolverine's past. You've got people like Shaw and Emma acting like nation Elites, Apocalypse acting like and being treated he's god king royalty and then you've got jean and Storm who barely feel like their station is any more than it once was.
    That's part of the point, and is also reflective of how people react in real life when they are given power.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZephyrSurf View Post
    In some stories they're hilariously inefficient, personable, snippy and bureaucratic, while in others they're incredibly detached, alien and inhumane..
    That applies to all the world governments at least to some extent.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZephyrSurf View Post
    Like how do you reconcile the people that Jean, Storm, kitty, and Kurt are with some of the really out there policies that the Council puts forward?
    .
    How do you reconcile the policies US congress (or really, any Congress) put on for centuries with some of the decent and upstanding people that were there?

  5. #5870
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    That's part of the point, and is also reflective of how people react in real life when they are given power.



    That applies to all the world governments at least to some extent.



    How do you reconcile the policies US congress (or really, any Congress) put on for centuries with some of the decent and upstanding people that were there?
    These are some gdo awful points. This isn't real life, it's a comic. It's a narrative that should have a consistent tone and key in the readers. Going "That's how governments work" is some half assed hand wavy bullshit.

  6. #5871
    Incredible Member Kingdom X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZephyrSurf View Post
    The Quiet council is an absolute dumpster fire of contradictions. The lack of dedicated focus, consistent portrayal and overall tone leaves this aspect of Krakoa feeling like a god damn game of scrabble played by blind people, except written with the consistency of Wolverine's past. You've got people like Shaw and Emma acting like nation Elites, Apocalypse acting like and being treated he's god king royalty and then you've got jean and Storm who barely feel like their station is any more than it once was.


    In some stories they're hilariously inefficient, personable, snippy and bureaucratic, while in others they're incredibly detached, alien and inhumane. Like how do you reconcile the people that Jean, Storm, kitty, and Kurt are with some of the really out there policies that the Council puts forward?


    It's like the Illuminati, except we're given sparse looks into their decisions and their decisions go all over the place. And that just can't work effectively without staining certain characters.
    Finally read X-Men 15 and...

    spoilers:
    I'm officially over the council. I love that the X-Men have their own nation and government now, but who elected these people. Shaw was able to enforce his will simply because council members were missing and because they chose to have a bunch of villains on the council. They keep talking about the good of Krakoa, but not once have we seen that this is a representative government.
    end of spoilers

  7. #5872
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    So Scott and Jean are heroes for wanting to save their " faux" son but Sue and Reed made into villains for trying to protect their son who is not even a mutant. Get out of here!!

  8. #5873
    Fantastic Member gonnagiveittoya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    That's part of the point, and is also reflective of how people react in real life when they are given power.



    That applies to all the world governments at least to some extent.



    How do you reconcile the policies US congress (or really, any Congress) put on for centuries with some of the decent and upstanding people that were there?
    I feel saying "they're awful, just like the real government"! Is a lazy excuse for inconsistent and unclear characterization

  9. #5874
    Incredible Member Psy-lock's Avatar
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    For real, the Council is a joke. Incompetent, corrupt and hypocritical.

  10. #5875
    Fantastic Member gonnagiveittoya's Avatar
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    I really hope the Council is gone at the end of Hickmans run.

  11. #5876
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonnagiveittoya View Post
    I really hope the Council is gone at the end of Hickmans run.
    I dont see why it would exist. Krakoa itself likely wont as it currently is presented

  12. #5877
    Astonishing Member LordUltimus's Avatar
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    I thought Krakoa was supposed to be better than any human nation.

  13. #5878
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    I don't think there are any plans to bring down Krakoa. Just to change it. Moira will eventually come out of the shadows and things can't stay the same after that, if not before.

  14. #5879
    Incredible Member Kingdom X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thecoolaidkid View Post
    So Scott and Jean are heroes for wanting to save their " faux" son but Sue and Reed made into villains for trying to protect their son who is not even a mutant. Get out of here!!
    I feel like this is apple and oranges. There was no evidence that Krakoans kidnapped Franklin and that they put him in any danger, so the F4 really didn't have any excuse to invade a sovereign nation.

    On the other hand Jott knew that Cable was in danger and Arrako was declaring war on Krakoa anyway. Plus, Arrako is a nation run by demons looking for blood, while the Krakoans were pretty much minding their own business.

  15. #5880
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    I feel like this is apple and oranges. There was no evidence that Krakoans kidnapped Franklin and that they put him in any danger, so the F4 really didn't have any excuse to invade a sovereign nation.

    On the other hand Jott knew that Cable was in danger and Arrako was declaring war on Krakoa anyway. Plus, Arrako is a nation run by demons looking for blood, while the Krakoans were pretty much minding their own business.
    To be fair FF had enough evidence to think they were on Krakoa (they were going there before Doom got them), Kitty really tried to kidnap Franklin before, only failed because Reed masked the x-gene.

    Krakoans weren't minding their own bussiness when they opened the gate to otherworld

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