Your Unpopular/Controversial Opinions on the X-Universe

[spirit2011]

Show proof, because this claim is a load of crap. They have been shown throughout HoX/PoX/DoX to take great pains not to harm innocents. Even the not so innocent when it came to the scientists in the Orchis mission. They have consistently show significant peaceful engagement with peaceful humans. The only people the X-Men have been hurting are bigots, soldiers and anti-mutant nut jobs who, in every single case, struck first.

magneto talking about taking over capitalism to control the worldon x-men #4
new mutants the cartel talking that they are privileged elite

[Kisinith]

magneto talking about taking over capitalism to control the worldon x-men #4
new mutants the cartel talking that they are privileged elite

1. Doesn't harm people, also using money to influence public opinion isn't a crime, isn't immoral, isn't wrong, and isn't fiction. It happens every day including advocating for things a whole lot worse.
2 The cartel said, really you want to use the words of a cartel. Sure, good argument. Lets also overlook all of the murder, torture, illegal medical experimentation inflicted upon this "privileged elite" when making that argument.

[Metal Sphere]

1. Doesn't harm people, also using money to influence public opinion isn't a crime, isn't immoral, isn't wrong, and isn't fiction. It happens every day including advocating for things a whole lot worse.

Almost all of this is wrong, Kisinith and I'm surprised you're floating this argument. The corrupting influence of money in politics is widely seen as a severe negative, an avenue for massive abuse to be carried out. And Erik didn't just say "influence", their goal is to buy human institutions out until anything that isn't pro-mutant is starved to death. You're okay with this because it's Magneto, but in the real world you get garbage like Russian or Chinese state television. It's not free, not honest, and not good. But I can see Hickman was taking a good ole jab at capitalism (and geopolitics) in that issue, so I'll move on.

2 The cartel said, really you want to use the words of a cartel. Sure, good argument. Lets also overlook all of the murder, torture, illegal medical experimentation inflicted upon this "privileged elite" when making that argument.

Yeah, I'd definitely wait until I hear from more reputable MU sources about whether mutants are the new privileged elite. Though it wasn't the first time we heard it. IIRC, the merc in X-Force said it as well.

[Zelena]

read the books cause literally all of that has happened already.

It happened in the past… for the first time. It was fun, light. It was a discovery.

[pkingdom]

There only seems to be 2 kinds of humans in the X books. Either they're actively pro-mutant, either by working with Krakoa or outright worshiping them, or they are super racists. The pro-mutant people only seem to exist to get slaughtered every other issue to add false stakes, and the racists are the only mutant antagonists left.

The only time in DoX where the X-men have gone out of their way to help humans was in Fallen Angels, which was a mess of bad writing and confusing messages. Are they doing this to help people? or because they are bored? or because Psylocke got a murder-quest vision and has a personal connection to this Apoth thing? Or is it about snuffing out Homo Novissimo?

The other times they've cared about humans its been paired with a self-interest factor. Trying to save pro-mutant activists or curry favor with their drugs. What they're doing certainly isn't evil or even necessarily bad, its just not too heroic. Them leaping to lethal force or maiming people doesn't help much.

[Kisinith]

Almost all of this is wrong, Kisinith and I'm surprised you're floating this argument. The corrupting influence of money in politics is widely seen as a severe negative, an avenue for massive abuse to be carried out. And Erik didn't just say "influence", their goal is to buy human institutions out until anything that isn't pro-mutant is starved to death. You're okay with this because it's Magneto, but in the real world you get garbage like Russian or Chinese state television. It's not free, not honest, and not good. But I can see Hickman was taking a good ole jab at capitalism (and geopolitics) in that issue, so I'll move on.

Not quite, this gets into a very shades of grey argument here because not all advocacy is immoral or evil. There are A LOT of very positive, "good" lobbies that advocate for causes that I wholeheartedly support. I work with high functioning autistic kids and I can tell you without a doubt that those kids would be a hell of a lot worse off without it. People have a knee jerk reaction to the idea of money in politics and immediately think of worst case scenarios (Tobacco, Big Oil and the National Rifle Association being the best known "negative" examples) however you also have groups like the Anti-Defamation league, Greenpeace or American Civil Liberties Union. And yeah in a perfect world I'd support getting all money out of politics but that's not realistic however and in the MU even as Magneto said they are using the structure humans set up to get the best possible deal for mutants, I just don't see that as a negative or at least not a negative reflective on mutants.

Yeah, I'd definitely wait until I hear from more reputable MU sources about whether mutants are the new privileged elite. Though it wasn't the first time we heard it. IIRC, the merc in X-Force said it as well.

[Ambaryerno]

1. Doesn't harm people, also using money to influence public opinion isn't a crime, isn't immoral, isn't wrong, and isn't fiction. It happens every day including advocating for things a whole lot worse.

[Metal Sphere]

Not quite, this gets into a very shades of grey argument here because not all advocacy is immoral or evil. There are A LOT of very positive, "good" lobbies that advocate for causes that I wholeheartedly support. I work with high functioning autistic kids and I can tell you without a doubt that those kids would be a hell of a lot worse off without it. People have a knee jerk reaction to the idea of money in politics and immediately think of worst case scenarios (Tobacco, Big Oil and the National Rifle Association being the best known "negative" examples) however you also have groups like the Anti-Defamation league, Greenpeace or American Civil Liberties Union. And yeah in a perfect world I'd support getting all money out of politics but that's not realistic however and in the MU even as Magneto said they are using the structure humans set up to get the best possible deal for mutants, I just don't see that as a negative or at least not a negative reflective on mutants.

Oh, there are certainly shades of gray here but they're rather dark shades. That advocacy groups are often successful at improving the lives of people using a broken, corrupt system doesn't negate the fact that the system enables profit motives to enter into decision making that really shouldn't take that into account. It's how we get a media more interested in profitability over truth and accuracy. How we get politicians more interested in getting their reelections funded than being a good representative for their constintuency. How we get educational institutions more interested in donor money and overseas students instead of providing accessible higher education. It's thoroughly bad, regardless of the bright spots in there. As some said in that issue's discussion thread, just the part where he says they'll buy out politicans should've upset every democratic nation at that table.

But as I said before, this is a fairly naked criticism of unregulated capitalism from Hickman (and Magneto being the vehicle for the message is no coincidence). It also ties into mutantkind's leaders trying anything to survive what appears to be an inevitable extinction of their people.

[Kisinith]

Yup

Oh, there are certainly shades of gray here but they're rather dark shades. That advocacy groups are often successful at improving the lives of people using a broken, corrupt system doesn't negate the fact that the system enables profit motives to enter into decision making that really shouldn't take that into account. It's how we get a media more interested in profitability over truth and accuracy. How we get politicians more interested in getting their reelections funded than being a good representative for their constintuency. How we get educational institutions more interested in donor money and overseas students instead of providing accessible higher education. It's thoroughly bad, regardless of the bright spots in there. As some said in that issue's discussion thread, just the part where he says they'll buy out politicans should've upset every democratic nation at that table.

But as I said before, this is a fairly naked criticism of unregulated capitalism from Hickman (and Magneto being the vehicle for the message is no coincidence). It also ties into mutantkind's leaders trying anything to survive what appears to be an inevitable extinction of their people.

Don't take my comment as an endorsement of the status quo in government. Removing money from politics would be a dream scenario but thats also a bigger fantasy than Krakoa is. Like it or not people have been using money and influence to pursue their own goals since the dawn of civilization. Democracy isn't a fix for that (in fact it makes the problem worse). The comment about buying politicians would only outrage the hopelessly naive, like it or not politicians are for sale and pretty much always have been.

My comment was entirely within the context of a system where this is the case. Engaging in the same process is not an immoral decision, especially as not engaging in it would neither fix the process nor advance their cause. Its an amoral decision, neither good nor bad. Politics and advocacy ultimately come down to questions about goals. History is full of very important, very worthy goals that only succeeded because of someone playing politics, trading favors, buying influence and buying politicians. The goal is good then the effort will be applauded.

For Example (great example)
The 13th Amendment to the US Constitution banning slavery. The process to get this passed included every single thing you disparage in Magneto's speech.

"the greatest measure of the nineteenth century was passed by corruption aided and abetted by the purest man in America"

There is a pretty great film "Lincoln" that came out in 2012 that covers this really well.

Other good examples would include the Civil Rights era. Civil rights in the USA only gained traction once its leaders, including among other Martin Luther King Jr, began engaging in this process.

If we don't criticize Lincoln and Martin Luther King Jr. for their acts how then can we criticize Magneto for the same.

Moral: concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior and the goodness or badness of human character. "Good"
Immoral: not moral, conflicting with moral principals. "Bad"
Amoral: being neither moral nor immoral; specifically: lying outside the sphere to which moral judgments apply

[Sutekh]

There only seems to be 2 kinds of humans in the X books. Either they're actively pro-mutant, either by working with Krakoa or outright worshiping them, or they are super racists. The pro-mutant people only seem to exist to get slaughtered every other issue to add false stakes, and the racists are the only mutant antagonists left.

Oh, I'm sure there are a silent majority of humans who do not GAF about mutants or mutant issues, or have far more important (to them) things to worry about, like being persecuted for their own age, health, race, gender, sexuality, religion, national origin, immigration status, financial status, etc. But we don't see them sitting on their couches, looking at their bills, wondering which ones they can afford to pay and which ones they can safely ignore for another month before the final notice shows up in red.

To these humans, about the only time they think about mutant issues at all is to grumble about their tax dollars going to pay for giant robots or whatever, when they should be doing something about coronavirus, or the potholes in their street. But since they aren't relevant to the X-story, we don't see them. Or want to, really.

[Metal Sphere]

Don't take my comment as an endorsement of the status quo in government. Removing money from politics would be a dream scenario but thats also a bigger fantasy than Krakoa is. Like it or not people have been using money and influence to pursue their own goals since the dawn of civilization. Democracy isn't a fix for that (in fact it makes the problem worse). The comment about buying politicians would only outrage the hopelessly naive, like it or not politicians are for sale and pretty much always have been.

My comment was entirely within the context of a system where this is the case. Engaging in the same process is not an immoral decision, especially as not engaging in it would neither fix the process nor advance their cause. Its an amoral decision, neither good nor bad. Politics and advocacy ultimately come down to questions about goals. History is full of very important, very worthy goals that only succeeded because of someone playing politics, trading favors, buying influence and buying politicians. The goal is good then the effort will be applauded.

Engaging in an immoral, corrupt process for noble goals like the ACLU or ADL gets you some slack for me. If a group were using capitalism to dismantle its institutions, I'd have no problem.
Engaging in an immoral, corrupt process for the sake of enriching yourself and controlling others? You've automatically gained my ire, especially since this system function by exploiting and destroying others to get ahead.
Just because politicians have been "for sale since the dawn of civilization" doesn't make it good, right or tolerable. This is part of why people don't like politicians, they're walking, talking corruption and lies. And no, it isn't naive for a democratic nation at that meeting to walk out in the face of mutants flat out declaring they'll mess with their sovereignty to get their way. Wars in the MU have started over less.

You are trying to argue that the ends justify the means, if the ends are good (And here, the goal is really only good for one side). I thoroughly reject that, and consider it a failure of the species that walking talking bags of excrement have to be catered to get anything done.

For Example (great example)
The 13th Amendment to the US Constitution banning slavery. The process to get this passed included every single thing you disparage in Magneto's speech.

There is a pretty great film "Lincoln" that came out in 2012 that covers this really well.

Other good examples would include the Civil Rights era. Civil rights in the USA only gained traction once its leaders, including among other Martin Luther King Jr, began engaging in this process.

If we don't criticize Lincoln and Martin Luther King Jr. for their acts how then can we criticize Magneto for the same.

Moral: concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior and the goodness or badness of human character. "Good"
Immoral: not moral, conflicting with moral principals. "Bad"
Amoral: being neither moral nor immoral; specifically: lying outside the sphere to which moral judgments apply

Yeah, except much of that was for nothing because a lot of the abolitionist efforts were ultimately weakened and reversed by the trash came after. That's the problem with getting to comfortable in the rotten process. You've sullied yourself while leaving doors wide open for opposition to pervert or undermine your accomplishments. Also, I find that comparison between Magneto & MLK really inappropriate. One is an unapologetic mutant supremacist skilled at sophistry. The other was a civil rights leader who wound up dying in the process of getting Civil Rights changes through that improved the lives of his people (and honestly all Americans). IMO, you could replace Magneto with Lex Luthor and it becomes abundantly clear that speech was a bog standard supervillain takeover plot. But since we're fans of mutants, it's okay because they're trying to protect mutant kids like Fauna or Beak and Angel's kids.

It makes for a good story. They are desperate as hell to try things like this and resurrection.

[Kisinith]

Engaging in an immoral, corrupt process for noble goals like the ACLU or ADL gets you some slack for me. If a group were using capitalism to dismantle its institutions, I'd have no problem.
Engaging in an immoral, corrupt process for the sake of enriching yourself and controlling others? You've automatically gained my ire, especially since this system function by exploiting and destroying others to get ahead.
Just because politicians have been "for sale since the dawn of civilization" doesn't make it good, right or tolerable. This is part of why people don't like politicians, they're walking, talking corruption and lies. And no, it isn't naive for a democratic nation at that meeting to walk out in the face of mutants flat out declaring they'll mess with their sovereignty to get their way. Wars in the MU have started over less.

You are trying to argue that the ends justify the means, if the ends are good (And here, the goal is really only good for one side). I thoroughly reject that, and consider it a failure of the species that walking talking bags of excrement have to be catered to get anything done.



Yeah, except much of that was for nothing because a lot of the abolitionist efforts were ultimately weakened and reversed by the trash came after. That's the problem with getting to comfortable in the rotten process. You've sullied yourself while leaving doors wide open for opposition to pervert or undermine your accomplishments. Also, I find that comparison between Magneto & MLK really inappropriate. One is an unapologetic mutant supremacist skilled at sophistry. The other was a civil rights leader who wound up dying in the process of getting Civil Rights changes through that improved the lives of his people (and honestly all Americans). IMO, you could replace Magneto with Lex Luthor and it becomes abundantly clear that speech was a bog standard supervillain takeover plot. But since we're fans of mutants, it's okay because they're trying to protect mutant kids like Fauna or Beak and Angel's kids.

It makes for a good story. They are desperate as hell to try things like this and resurrection.

1. Did you seriously just claim that the Amendment abolishing slavery and the Civil Rights movement was for nothing?

2. Politics, advocacy and lobbying are not immoral practices they are amoral. We can decry them all we want but that is ineffective. It comes back to what I said in my last post. Not engaging in it would neither fix the process nor advance their cause. If the cause is just then using money and influence to advance it isn't a problem, at all.

3. I did not compare MLK and Magneto. I did compare the methods used by Lincoln and MLK with the current methods being used by the Krakoans including Magneto. More Lincoln than MLK to be honest. Magnetos speech wasn't about him taking over the world it was about using (mostly Xavier's) money to advance the cause of mutants and hamper the efforts of anti-mutant bigotry. Its a far cry from taking over.

[pkingdom]

Its just a little obnoxious that the only humans are 'mutant fanboys' and 'racists'. Even the random people they meet tend to just be the latter, like the zoo lady in Excalibur.

[Kisinith]

Its just a little obnoxious that the only humans are 'mutant fanboys' and 'racists'. Even the random people they meet tend to just be the latter, like the zoo lady in Excalibur.

Let us not forget the amazing unnamed Krakoan Desk CIA analyst, the Wakandan and Chinese ambassadors, the druids in Excalibur, the president of Terra Verde... Actually seems to be quite a few ordinary people who are neither obnoxious nor fan boys. Especially considering its a comic book that will at some point resort to fisticuffs and laser beams to solve every problem.

[Kisinith]

You are trying to argue that the ends justify the means, if the ends are good (And here, the goal is really only good for one side). I thoroughly reject that, and consider it a failure of the species that walking talking bags of excrement have to be catered to get anything done.

Here is a link to perhaps my favorite scene from Lincoln it kind of speaks to the heart of this discussion.
Lincoln