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  1. #5896
    Hi, Sage. nandes's Avatar
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    The ending of HoXPoX starts by showing the council facing the 'distateful' challenge of dispatching Sabertooth to the pit, and closes as a massive party happens while Moira warns Xavier and Erik that they may have become too cocky

    The idea that Hickman has ever intended to portray Krakoa and the council as anything but morally grey is weird

  2. #5897
    Fantastic Member gonnagiveittoya's Avatar
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    The council being intentionally gray and the council being poorly written are not mutually exclusive ideas

  3. #5898
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    This entire storyline is just dragging and I really wish it would hurry up to some of the bigger points. X of swords could absolutely have been just one arc in Excalibur it’s the only book really affected by any of the changes from the ending. Apocalypse being gone and the new Corp that’s all for Excalibur. Everything else is so minor it could have been in Sword 1 including finding the peak in the first place. Everyone is talking about how cyclops and jean are gonna have a big falling out with the QC when the QC is itself a meaningless plot device that only has power when the writers want it to. I don’t need five more years of this just get to the point already!!

  4. #5899
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonnagiveittoya View Post
    The council being intentionally gray and the council being poorly written are not mutually exclusive ideas
    Most seem to say the intentional gray writing is what's making them poorly written. Despite the fact that most of its membership is comprised of some long established shady individuals (including Xavier).

    Quote Originally Posted by nandes View Post
    The ending of HoXPoX starts by showing the council facing the 'distateful' challenge of dispatching Sabertooth to the pit, and closes as a massive party happens while Moira warns Xavier and Erik that they may have become too cocky

    The idea that Hickman has ever intended to portray Krakoa and the council as anything but morally grey is weird
    Yeah, it's seemed pretty heavily foreshadowed from the beginning that the Council's hubris would be their undoing and that Krakoa may have something to build off of...but most likely without them in the future. Storm, Kurt, Kitty and Doug are the most conventionally heroic characters on that group and they may come out the other side of it, and Jean has left, but everyone else may go down hard before the end is over.

    The nation might be following Scott and Jean with Xavier, Mags and Apocalypse out in the cold before the end of this.
    Last edited by SiegePerilous02; 11-25-2020 at 09:57 PM.

  5. #5900
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    The times I have been impressed by Jean Grey are when she didnít have Scott Summers around her.

  6. #5901
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    The times I have been impressed by Jean Grey are when she didnít have Scott Summers around her.
    Same for me

    Quote Originally Posted by gonnagiveittoya View Post
    The council being intentionally gray and the council being poorly written are not mutually exclusive ideas
    Right.

    I think council being morally grey doesn't exclude from Xavier and Magneto thinking they are better than human governments. Cognitie Dissonance exists
    Last edited by baxer; 11-26-2020 at 08:19 AM.

  7. #5902
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by baxer View Post
    Right.

    I think council being morally grey doesn't exclude from Xavier and Magneto thinking they are better than human governments. Cognitie Dissonance exists
    Unreliable narrators exist. Good characters have ideas the author doesn't necessarily agree with but are allowed to be themselves and the reader can draw their own conclusions.

    Xavier and Magneto are taking a good idea but are blind to their own hubris. Magneto in particular thinking the are better than human governments is 100% in character

  8. #5903
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    My issue was never with the council being morally grey or hypocritical. Like my issue was wholly with portrayal, screen time and consistency. I have no issue with them doing messed up stuff, hell i expect it. The issue is that the lense on them is poorly set and has no consistent tone.

    'Do we need to see every meeting? Not even close, but when certain meetings have very strong character defining impacts, it feels like we should have more than a passing "the council decided." moment. Cause some of these decisions feel like they should weigh on council members and we're never given those moments.

    Like how does Jean or Kurt feel about the Crucible?
    Does the decision about not resurrecting Madelyne keep kate up at night?

    These are very strong moral stances to take/be a bystander for others to take and it just kinda feels like these books aren't giving us any time to dwell on them.

  9. #5904
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    You are right Z-Surf, but...

    Writers have only 21 pages in which to tell a particular story and move the plot along and may choose to cut certain scenes that would take panel space away from another scene that might be more integral to the story at that point. That they didn't dwell on Jean and Kurt's thoughts and feelings on the Crucible does not mean that such thoughts and feelings aren't considered and may show up elsewhere and/or expressed by other characters.

    Granted...not all writers are good at self-editing...as the XoS "tournaments" chapters have shown.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa and Arakko, FOREVER!!!

  10. #5905
    Astonishing Member Omega Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZephyrSurf View Post
    My issue was never with the council being morally grey or hypocritical. Like my issue was wholly with portrayal, screen time and consistency. I have no issue with them doing messed up stuff, hell i expect it. The issue is that the lense on them is poorly set and has no consistent tone.

    'Do we need to see every meeting? Not even close, but when certain meetings have very strong character defining impacts, it feels like we should have more than a passing "the council decided." moment. Cause some of these decisions feel like they should weigh on council members and we're never given those moments.

    Like how does Jean or Kurt feel about the Crucible?
    Does the decision about not resurrecting Madelyne keep kate up at night?

    These are very strong moral stances to take/be a bystander for others to take and it just kinda feels like these books aren't giving us any time to dwell on them.
    We know how Kurt feels about the Crucible, there was an entire issue about it.

  11. #5906
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    We know how Kurt feels about the Crucible, there was an entire issue about it.
    And there may be more. The Reign of X teaser seemingly has Kurt working on the bible he was talking about in that issue.

  12. #5907
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Most seem to say the intentional gray writing is what's making them poorly written. Despite the fact that most of its membership is comprised of some long established shady individuals (including Xavier).



    Yeah, it's seemed pretty heavily foreshadowed from the beginning that the Council's hubris would be their undoing and that Krakoa may have something to build off of...but most likely without them in the future. Storm, Kurt, Kitty and Doug are the most conventionally heroic characters on that group and they may come out the other side of it, and Jean has left, but everyone else may go down hard before the end is over.

    The nation might be following Scott and Jean with Xavier, Mags and Apocalypse out in the cold before the end of this.
    If you mean Scott and Jean will lead Krakoa single handedly sure that's possible but after seeing what Scott did in AvX not sure it's better than QC.Scott's sometimes intransigence and idealism make him appear more like Napoleon than Abe Lincoln. Can he lead? No doubt ,but will he put Krakoa in peril with his penchant for aggression? ..More often than I'd like to admit. If you mean scaling down to a mansion style leadership of yesteryear..Honestly think there is no going back, the council may disband or get simpler like a triumvirate.I just don't see them going back to a mansion set up,unless Franklin re-sets reality and they have no recall of being a nation.I mean a real life example is the Jewish people ,though they lost their nation and homeland thousands of years ago, it never left their consciousness to restore their nation for example in the 1897 Zionist congress. Historic example aside, to me it is inconceivable that mutants after tasting statehood, recognition and so forth would just be like 'no this is a mistake of epic proportions,I'd rather be an enclave with no nation'. Unless they wipe the slate clean by an amnesia induced reboot,Krakoa is here to stay, maybe not the form of the Council but it will remain. Worst case scenario is you have mini Krakoas world over called different names but overseen by Magneto ,Exodus indipendent and autonomous
    Last edited by Rev9; 11-26-2020 at 12:07 PM.

  13. #5908
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    There have been some terrible X-crossovers in the past, but X of Swords is unquestionably the worst. I felt like I was reading someone's plot point checklist rather than an actual story with weight and meaning. As far as I'm concerned, Jonathan Hickman is a half-talented hack who doesn't understand his own story. I'm still trying to wrap my head around the fact that Storm almost caused an international incident to claim a sword whose purpose was, ultimately, to be used in a manner no different than any other polished, reflective sword by any idiot who's watched Clash of the Titans. Doug Ramsey is now in love with and married to someone he hadn't known until five minutes ago just because he can't understand her? And how exactly did refusing to yield in a one-on-one duel turn into an all-out war? Apocalypse's children were supposed to be his most powerful Horsemen ever, yet two of them were defeated by mutants who didn't even have their powers at the time? I didn't have high expectations for this run, but I expected better than this.

  14. #5909
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    We know how Kurt feels about the Crucible, there was an entire issue about it.
    I was just using him as an example, of course we know how he felt, he was the point character in the chapter it was in. The issue isn't with that, it's with everyone else. The illuminati would be so much more insufferable, and trust they are already, if they had this piecemeal approach that they're doing with the council.

  15. #5910
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    Quote Originally Posted by LogosPundit View Post
    There have been some terrible X-crossovers in the past, but X of Swords is unquestionably the worst. I felt like I was reading someone's plot point checklist rather than an actual story with weight and meaning. As far as I'm concerned, Jonathan Hickman is a half-talented hack who doesn't understand his own story. I'm still trying to wrap my head around the fact that Storm almost caused an international incident to claim a sword whose purpose was, ultimately, to be used in a manner no different than any other polished, reflective sword by any idiot who's watched Clash of the Titans. Doug Ramsey is now in love with and married to someone he hadn't known until five minutes ago just because he can't understand her? And how exactly did refusing to yield in a one-on-one duel turn into an all-out war? Apocalypse's children were supposed to be his most powerful Horsemen ever, yet two of them were defeated by mutants who didn't even have their powers at the time? I didn't have high expectations for this run, but I expected better than this.
    There is really no need to just wholesale copy and paste your posts between threads. Folks'll see it.

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