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  1. #3061

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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenixzero23 View Post
    Except that is what happened. Wolverine and Jean haven been platonic since forever and Cyclops and Jean since Morrison and the time displaced X-men. Everybody was also dead or on AUs until Hickman.


    I don't want to argue, talking about shipping is so tiresome, most of the time people look at the worst things. I'm just saying that these characters loving her doesn't present any more or less of a problem than they don't doing it or someone else doing it.
    No, I'm not arguing on shipping, I understand that. I mean since Jean's resurrection it's all been kinda...well the last panel of Rosecanny's X-Men, it's pretty self-explanatory. Like I wish there was more effort on Marvel's part not to just throw them all together and dig up that drama, just let them be by themselves a while without any romantic subtext whatsoever.

  2. #3062
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Exactly why the three of them need to be kept apart for a while. Like opposite ends of the island apart.
    Not far enough. Jean needs to be a Guardian of the Galaxy, and Cyclops an Avenger, and Wolverine can stick with the X-Men. Really split them up, so that all three of them can get some development utterly absent of even *chatter* about the others. Surround them with characters who are new to them, and through which we can 'meet them' again 'for the first time', instead of with whatever echo chamber of familiar characterization interactions we've all read a hundred times before. Oh yes, Ororo and Jean are such good besties, despite us rarely being *shown* that. Whatever. Logan and Scott, grrhate, snarl, passive-aggressive grumble. Over it. Let's see something new.

    All three of them are, IMO, capable of so much more when not trapped in their same, same comfort zones. Wolverine, for instance, whom I generally can't stand, actually shines when he's the one who has to take the lead. Saddled with the bitchy sidekick role to leader Scott, he's just an annoying pain in the ass, IMO, and comes across as churlish. Jean, IMO, could *really* cut loose on a more cosmic scale, which is where the Guardians operate. And it would be great to see her interact with other powerhouse cosmic-lite characters like Nova or the Silver Surfer or Gladiator (or Moondragon...). And Cyclops, as an Avenger? He'll either be a great 'soldier' or utterly unable to adapt to working alongside alpha males like Captain America, the Black Panther, Iron Man, etc. Either way, it'll bring out some new sides to explore than his standard interactions with Jean, Logan, Ororo, Emma, Warren, etc. which we've seen ad infinitum over the years and which practically write themselves, at this point, since they've been set in stone since the eighties.
    Last edited by Sutekh; 12-05-2019 at 03:45 PM.

  3. #3063

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    Not far enough. Jean needs to be a Guardian of the Galaxy, and Cyclops an Avenger, and Wolverine can stick with the X-Men. Really split them up, so that all three of them can get some development utterly absent of even *chatter* about the others. Surround them with characters who are new to them, and through which we can 'meet them' again 'for the first time', instead of with whatever echo chamber of familiar characterization interactions we've all read a hundred times before. Oh yes, Ororo and Jean are such good besties, despite us rarely being *shown* that. Whatever. Logan and Scott, grrhate, snarl, passive-aggressive grumble. Over it. Let's see something new.

    All three of them are, IMO, capable of so much more when not trapped in their same, same comfort zones. Wolverine, for instance, whom I generally can't stand, actually shines when he's the one who has to take the lead. Saddled with the bitchy sidekick role to leader Scott, he's just an annoying pain in the ass, IMO, and comes across as churlish. Jean, IMO, could *really* cut loose on a more cosmic scale, which is where the Guardians operate. And it would be great to see her interact with other powerhouse cosmic-lite characters like Nova or the Silver Surfer or Gladiator (or Moondragon...). And Cyclops, as an Avenger? He'll either be a great 'soldier' or utterly unable to adapt to working alongside alpha males like Captain America, the Black Panther, Iron Man, etc. Either way, it'll bring out some new sides to explore than his standard interactions with Jean, Logan, Ororo, Emma, Warren, etc. which we've seen ad infinitum over the years and which practically write themselves, at this point, since they've been set in stone since the eighties.
    Ok, you I love. Give me all of those books right now.

  4. #3064
    Fantastic Member Su_Whisterfield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    Not far enough. Jean needs to be a Guardian of the Galaxy, and Cyclops an Avenger, and Wolverine can stick with the X-Men. Really split them up, so that all three of them can get some development utterly absent of even *chatter* about the others. Surround them with characters who are new to them, and through which we can 'meet them' again 'for the first time', instead of with whatever echo chamber of familiar characterization interactions we've all read a hundred times before. Oh yes, Ororo and Jean are such good besties, despite us rarely being *shown* that. Whatever. Logan and Scott, grrhate, snarl, passive-aggressive grumble. Over it. Let's see something new.

    All three of them are, IMO, capable of so much more when not trapped in their same, same comfort zones. Wolverine, for instance, whom I generally can't stand, actually shines when he's the one who has to take the lead. Saddled with the bitchy sidekick role to leader Scott, he's just an annoying pain in the ass, IMO, and comes across as churlish. Jean, IMO, could *really* cut loose on a more cosmic scale, which is where the Guardians operate. And it would be great to see her interact with other powerhouse cosmic-lite characters like Nova or the Silver Surfer or Gladiator (or Moondragon...). And Cyclops, as an Avenger? He'll either be a great 'soldier' or utterly unable to adapt to working alongside alpha males like Captain America, the Black Panther, Iron Man, etc. Either way, it'll bring out some new sides to explore than his standard interactions with Jean, Logan, Ororo, Emma, Warren, etc. which we've seen ad infinitum over the years and which practically write themselves, at this point, since they've been set in stone since the eighties.
    Yep, I’d buy the lot of those books. Well said.

  5. #3065
    Fire and life incarnate! phoenixzero23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Like I wish there was more effort on Marvel's part not to just throw them all together and dig up that drama, just let them be by themselves a while without any romantic subtext whatsoever.
    I enjoy some of those interactions so we are on a different side of the spectrum on that regard but I can agree on some things.
    Throwing everybody so fast in whatever Hickman is doing now does feel wrong to me. But most people I have been talking these days seemed to be having fun about everybody being with everybody.
    My opinions are my own

  6. #3066
    Extraordinary Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenixzero23 View Post
    Love triangles are definitely an issue. Though Jean hasn't been with either guy for decades. Maybe she is with both this time but still no love triangle.
    But I don't get how they loving her is a bad thing. If anything it was the only reason some people remembered she existed when Marvel wanted to forget about her.
    They are not fighting over her and she will do or stop doing the same thing with or without them.
    Seriously, sometimes the Wolverine and Cyclops bashing is just exaggerated. It is like people just disliked them and find every reason to blame them for everything.
    And that is a bad thing. Jean death should loom large then it got reduced to a reason to Wolverine and Cyclops fight on Schism.
    Even if Jean is with both at same time, soon some writer will wreak havok and love triangle again. Writers and Marvel love some drama

    i'm all for them being friends.

  7. #3067
    Fire and life incarnate! phoenixzero23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    And that is a bad thing. Jean death should loom large then it got reduced to a reason to Wolverine and Cyclops fight on Schism.
    Yeah, Jean's death should be a larger deal but how is a problem that Cyclops and Wolverine cared? It being a big deal for them didn't prevent for it being a big deal for other characters. If it wasn't explored or nobody thought it was important is not Cyclops or Wolverine fault.

    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    And that is a bad thing. Jean death should loom large then it got reduced to a reason to Wolverine and Cyclops fight on Schism.
    Even if Jean is with both at same time, soon some writer will wreak havok and love triangle again. Writers and Marvel love some drama
    that will kappen with everything and anybody else sadly, that's the nature of Marvel. NOne of them has been with the other for long and yet there is drama. At least there is some fun if they embrace it.
    Last edited by phoenixzero23; 12-05-2019 at 04:04 PM.
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  8. #3068
    Extraordinary Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    Not far enough. Jean needs to be a Guardian of the Galaxy, and Cyclops an Avenger, and Wolverine can stick with the X-Men. Really split them up, so that all three of them can get some development utterly absent of even *chatter* about the others. Surround them with characters who are new to them, and through which we can 'meet them' again 'for the first time', instead of with whatever echo chamber of familiar characterization interactions we've all read a hundred times before. Oh yes, Ororo and Jean are such good besties, despite us rarely being *shown* that. Whatever. Logan and Scott, grrhate, snarl, passive-aggressive grumble. Over it. Let's see something new.

    All three of them are, IMO, capable of so much more when not trapped in their same, same comfort zones. Wolverine, for instance, whom I generally can't stand, actually shines when he's the one who has to take the lead. Saddled with the bitchy sidekick role to leader Scott, he's just an annoying pain in the ass, IMO, and comes across as churlish. Jean, IMO, could *really* cut loose on a more cosmic scale, which is where the Guardians operate. And it would be great to see her interact with other powerhouse cosmic-lite characters like Nova or the Silver Surfer or Gladiator (or Moondragon...). And Cyclops, as an Avenger? He'll either be a great 'soldier' or utterly unable to adapt to working alongside alpha males like Captain America, the Black Panther, Iron Man, etc. Either way, it'll bring out some new sides to explore than his standard interactions with Jean, Logan, Ororo, Emma, Warren, etc. which we've seen ad infinitum over the years and which practically write themselves, at this point, since they've been set in stone since the eighties.
    I think Scott on avengers wouldn't work because of AvX. But they are living with villains on krakoa, so why not?
    Jean on guardians of Galaxy would be awesome, she has a lot to talk about sacrifice with Richard Nova

  9. #3069
    Extraordinary Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenixzero23 View Post
    Yeah, Jean's death should be a larger deal but how is a problem that Cyclops and Wolverine cared? It being a big deal for them didn't prevent for it being a big deal for other characters. If it wasn't explored or nobody thought it was important is not Cyclops or Wolverine fault.
    No problem with them caring, the problem is with only them caring. I agree is not fault of the characters, that it happens, but we still can avoid it. We need more writers that care about female characters and not about the manpain she will cause to them.

    that will kappen with everything and anybody else sadly, that's the nature of Marvel. NOne of them has been with the other for long and yet there is drama. At least there is some fun if they embrace it.
    I don't think it is fun, it's not what i want to see and for me doesn't make sense. Fanfic shouldn't become canon just for the Lulz LOL
    It would just make things worse

  10. #3070
    Mighty Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Chris Claremont's original X-Men run didn't get particularly great until after Jean Grey died, and its peak had ended after she was brought back.

  11. #3071
    Incredible Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    How this for a controversial opinion: the X books were better when Jean, Cyclops, Wolverine and Xavier were dead, and would have been even better if Magneto and a few villains had joined them. There were better stories told with them gone, and there was much more potential without them. Letting the writers cheat with the teen O5 and Old Man Logan was a huge mistake.

  12. #3072
    Fire and life incarnate! phoenixzero23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    How this for a controversial opinion: the X books were better when Jean, Cyclops, Wolverine and Xavier were dead, and would have been even better if Magneto and a few villains had joined them. There were better stories told with them gone, and there was much more potential without them. Letting the writers cheat with the teen O5 and Old Man Logan was a huge mistake.
    Even if i like those characters it would have been interesting to see what would be of the X-men without them for a few years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    Chris Claremont's original X-Men run didn't get particularly great until after Jean Grey died, and its peak had ended after she was brought back.
    That seems very popular, maybe that's why marvel has killed and tried to keep Jean dead. She is so connected to many important characters that her being dead or alive changes everything a little.
    Last edited by phoenixzero23; 12-16-2019 at 07:36 PM.
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  13. #3073
    Astonishing Member CRaymond's Avatar
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    Once more for the people in the back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    Chris Claremont's original X-Men run didn't get particularly great until after Jean Grey died, and its peak had ended after she was brought back.
    The deaths and resurrections of Jean Grey serve as the defining eras of X-Men. 60-70s, living. 80s dead. 90s living. 00-10s dead. Hickman is shepherding the Fifth Age of Xavier.

  14. #3074
    Extraordinary Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    sometimes it feels like people want to convince that x-men comics are better if Jean is dead

  15. #3075
    Astonishing Member CRaymond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    sometimes it feels like people want to convince that x-men comics are better if Jean is dead
    We ALL recognize that Jean is your favorite character.

    For me, I feel her death heightens the anxieties of the characters left alive. X-Men is best when it's a group of characters walking on thin ice, haunted by regrets and terrified of making the wrong move that will result in DOFP. With Jean alive, they seem to feel stronger and full of hubris. Her absence makes them weaker and less confident... and far more compelling.

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