Your Unpopular/Controversial Opinions on the X-Universe

[spirit2011]

In ancillary books a lot of people didn't read. I'm just saying a lot of people did not care what Cable and Bishop were doing in the future chasing each other like Looney Toons.

For sure people cared. you are downplaying because now we can see that they changed plans

The only event that had a real impact was AvX. Hope was used as part of that to help repower the mutants, but she was not central to the story of the Phoenix Five. She also only did that as part of a larger cross-company event which also heavily featured the Avengers and Wanda Maximoff at the end. Frankly Hope's entire role in that event struck me as the X-office's last gasp attempt to say 'look, she meant something, see? See?!' It was tying off a loose end.

What did the Lights, Cable, Bishop contribute to AvX or repowering mutants? Nothing.

Now Jean is back and Hope can't get a quarter to do her laundry.

Hope after AvX is a non entity

[powerpax]

For sure people cared. you are downplaying because now we can see that they changed plans

I sure never cared. After crap like HoM/Decimation it took a lot more than Alternate Future Story #4206969 and a baby with red hair (who the X-Men helped care for so you know damn well she is not Jean Grey coming back to **** Cyclops, so what is the point of the storyline) to get my ass out of bed.

I'm sure some folks cared. But I've been around too long to care about the same old X-Men teases that go nowhere, which is for all intents and purposes what the Hope/dystopia future X etc mess did. Hope was crowbarred into AvX simply to finally make her any narrative weight whatsoever. The reason that had to happen is because MC, SC, Hope, the Lights, etc. all performed the same meta-corporate function: Keep the X-books spinning in place and marginalized with the vague illusion of impending change, but ultimately doing nothing. They were money and timesinks.

[Maestroneto]

Alternately - and this is not about the above post, it's just general bafflement on my part - I see people on social media waxing rhapsodic about how this book can't compare to the heights of stuff like, idk, Messiah Complex or Second Coming, and I'm like - those events were basically merchandising-friendly schlock I barely remember and can't be fucked about. It was all just plate-spinning for books which Marvel corporate no longer cared about at the time, with fan service **** like Bastion, etc. and a time travel event that meant nothing for a character (Hope) with no real future purpose. People acting like Hope, Cable/Bishop in the future, the Lights, Kyle/Yost time travel-y **** is somehow the height of the X-franchise is beyond me. I just don't get it. None of that **** had any impact, it was just time-wasting filler and an attempt to keep X-fans buying the latest summer crossover waiting for something to happen. They were slightly higher-gloss version of 90s crap like X-Cutioner's Song (and yes, X-Cutioner's Song was bad at the time), Phalanx Covenant, The Twelve, OZT.

Even the Utopia/SF era as a whole - there is some nice stuff in that period, but ultimately it is insubstantial and largely irrelevant to the franchise overall. (Not as insubstantial as the post-Secret Wars mess until now, of course, but then what is?)

I loved Messiah Complex but Second Coming was hot garbage Kyost murder porn (can they do anything else?).

[powerpax]

I loved Messiah Complex but Second Coming was hot garbage Kyost murder porn (can they do anything else?).

No. But I knew that before Messiah Complex. I guess if someone is really into action figures and weapon iconography their books are super fun, but they all read like 14 yo masturbatory fantasy to me. Especially the original X-Force revamp. They had some good voices for some of their NXM characters, I'll give them that. But it was the overall tone and focus of their books - grimdark, weapons, cyborgs, 90s/cartoon nostalgia - that seemed so superficial and adolescent.

I think some of Messiah Complex is a good story, including certain dramatic stuff with the traitor twist. But it was what it led to with Bishop becoming some sort of mass murderer, as well as the optics of that choice in a largely white heterosexual superteam whining about being minorities - and most of all, the fact that I could already tell Hope was a lead balloon that was not a) Jean Grey or b) going to undo Decimation in that event or any time soon - that annoyed and bored me. I don't need to read another 100 pages of Prime Sentinels, Predator X, blah blah blah that's all Kyost cybervillain porn. It just seemed like their excuse to do another weightless 90s crossover.

[Havok83]

In ancillary books a lot of people didn't read. I'm just saying a lot of people did not care what Cable and Bishop were doing in the future chasing each other like Looney Toons.



The only event that had a real impact was AvX. Hope was used as part of that to help repower the mutants, but she was not central to the story of the Phoenix Five. She also only did that as part of a larger cross-company event which also heavily featured the Avengers and Wanda Maximoff at the end. Frankly Hope's entire role in that event struck me as the X-office's last gasp attempt to say 'look, she meant something, see? See?!' It was tying off a loose end.

What did the Lights, Cable, Bishop contribute to AvX or repowering mutants? Nothing.

Now Jean is back and Hope can't get a quarter to do her laundry.

No one read X-Force? It was one of the best books of that era and very important as it bridged Messiah Complex to Second Coming. Xavier was shot in MC which springboarded Carey's Legacy run. The X-men shut the school down ending the Whedon era and moved to SF. UXM was hardly an ancillary title as the direct aftermath of SC was followed up in that title. Karma and Hellion were maimed in that arc and still are to this day. Hope may have fallen off after AvX but we had 3-4 years where she was pushed during this time. Just bc she isnt a major figure today doesnt mean those stories were filler.

[spirit2011]

I sure never cared. After crap like HoM/Decimation it took a lot more than Alternate Future Story #4206969 and a baby with red hair (who the X-Men helped care for so you know damn well she is not Jean Grey coming back to **** Cyclops, so what is the point of the storyline) to get my ass out of bed.

I'm sure some folks cared. But I've been around too long to care about the same old X-Men teases that go nowhere, which is for all intents and purposes what the Hope/dystopia future X etc mess did. Hope was crowbarred into AvX simply to finally make her any narrative weight whatsoever. The reason that had to happen is because MC, SC, Hope, the Lights, etc. all performed the same meta-corporate function: Keep the X-books spinning in place and marginalized with the vague illusion of impending change, but ultimately doing nothing. They were money and timesinks.

Well Marvel needed a big event to defeat new 52 from DC, so Hope/phoenix were forced into a AvX event. But anyway hope story wouldn't go beyond bringing the mutants back.
Gonna say that there was many stories that didn't went nowhere lately for mutants

[powerpax]

No one read X-Force? It was one of the best books of that era

That said, Hope, Cable and Bishop's story was ancillary to the premise of that 'great' X-Force run. That book became part of certain crossovers along with the rest of the franchise, it was not centered around those characters.

Xavier was shot in MC which springboarded Carey's Legacy run.

A nice anthology run which is also ultimately irrelevant to the stasis of the entire franchise in the 2000s-2010s. And he also died/was mortally wounded/whatever again less than ten years later. Yawn.

Karma and Hellion were maimed in that arc and still are to this day.

I love Shan, but are we really pretending that's super-important to the X-books?

You are just listing books that took part in MC, lol. That doesn't mean the actual event was ultimately very important.

[PsychoEFrost]

That said, Hope, Cable and Bishop's story was ancillary to the premise of that 'great' X-Force run. That book became part of certain crossovers along with the rest of the franchise, it was not centered around those characters.



A nice anthology run which is also ultimately irrelevant to the stasis of the entire franchise in the 2000s-2010s. And he also died/was mortally wounded/whatever again less than ten years later. Yawn.



I love Shan, but are we really pretending that's super-important to the X-books?

You are just listing books that took part in MC, lol. That doesn't mean the actual event was ultimately very important.

By that rationale the X-Men have had zero status quo changes since 1983.

[powerpax]

Well Marvel needed a big event to defeat new 52 from DC, so Hope/phoenix were forced into a AvX event.

The Phoenix was always going to be a part of AvX. Hope was put in there to tie her loose end character off and make it appear like she was ever important and make it seem like wasting several years on her story made any difference.

[lurkerforyears]

That said, Hope, Cable and Bishop's story was ancillary to the premise of that 'great' X-Force run. That book became part of certain crossovers along with the rest of the franchise, it was not centered around those characters.



A nice anthology run which is also ultimately irrelevant to the stasis of the entire franchise in the 2000s-2010s. And he also died/was mortally wounded/whatever again less than ten years later. Yawn.



I love Shan, but are we really pretending that's super-important to the X-books?

You are just listing books that took part in MC, lol. That doesn't mean the actual event was ultimately very important.

that wasnt irrelevant. Hickman is picking up a lot of stuff from those runs.
The list of human Genocides with the numbers of dead or depowered mutants come straight from the event in which Bastion attacked Utopia. literally copied from that.

[PsychoEFrost]

The Phoenix was always going to be a part of AvX. Hope was put in there to tie her loose end character off and make it appear like she was ever important and make it seem like wasting several years on her story made any difference.

She manifested a Phoenix raptor at two days old, and you think she wasn't going to be connected to that? REALLY?

[powerpax]

By that rationale the X-Men have had zero status quo changes since 1983.

All crossovers/events are not created equal, that's my point. We can pretend Messiah Complex or Second Coming (or OZT or X-Cutioner's Song) is on the same level of X-Tinction Agenda/Muir Isle Saga/adjectiveless launch (not all brilliant stories, but definitely more seismic in terms of franchise change across that extended arc) if we want to, but all we're doing if we do that IMO is justifying money wasted and nostalgia feels.

There's a reason that decade is being called the lost years.

[Maestroneto]

The Phoenix was always going to be a part of AvX. Hope was put in there to tie her loose end character off and make it appear like she was ever important and make it seem like wasting several years on her story made any difference.

What spirit’s talking about is that there was never going to be an “Avengers vs X-Men” event until the New 52 took off. Age of Ultron was the big 2012 event and already had tons of art shown off. Who knows how long the Hope/Phoenix/Decimation plot was going to be dragged out for if not for DC’s reboot.

[powerpax]

She manifested a Phoenix raptor at two days old, and you think she wasn't going to be connected to that? REALLY?

No, I always think she was going to be connected to the Phoenix. But I don't think it was part of a grand plan intended to lead to AvX. I think they jerked people around with Hope, the Lights, etc. for years getting people to pay money for event books and relaunches and so on, waiting for something real to happen to the X-Men until they finally were ready to dump it and move on. So they wove her into that. But even there, is she the Phoenix avatar central to the story? Nope.

[Vegan Daddy]

Alternately - and this is not about the above post, it's just general bafflement on my part - I see people on social media waxing rhapsodic about how this book can't compare to the heights of stuff like, idk, Messiah Complex or Second Coming, and I'm like - those events were basically merchandising-friendly schlock I barely remember and can't be fucked about. It was all just plate-spinning for books which Marvel corporate no longer cared about at the time, with fan service **** like Bastion, etc. and a time travel event that meant nothing for a character (Hope) with no real future purpose. People acting like Hope, Cable/Bishop in the future, the Lights, Kyle/Yost time travel-y **** is somehow the height of the X-franchise is beyond me. I just don't get it. None of that **** had any impact, it was just time-wasting filler and an attempt to keep X-fans buying the latest summer crossover waiting for something to happen. They were slightly higher-gloss version of 90s crap like X-Cutioner's Song (and yes, X-Cutioner's Song was bad at the time), Phalanx Covenant, The Twelve, OZT.

I’m so with you on this. Messiah Complex was like a two-part episode of the 90s animated series if it took itself seriously and had lots of gore. Yuck.