Your Unpopular/Controversial Opinions on the X-Universe

[ermac]

I hate that "modern comics" are all about plot twists and cliffhangers but none character development.

Editorial throws stupid ideas every year and writers barely have time to explore status quo before it changes in the next event...

those events were basically merchandising-friendly schlock I barely remember and can't be fucked about. It was all just plate-spinning for books which Marvel corporate no longer cared about at the time, with fan service **** like Bastion, etc. and a time travel event that meant nothing for a character (Hope) with no real future purpose. People acting like Hope, Cable/Bishop in the future, the Lights, Kyle/Yost time travel-y **** is somehow the height of the X-franchise is beyond me. I just don't get it. None of that **** had any impact, it was just time-wasting filler and an attempt to keep X-fans buying the latest summer crossover waiting for something to happen. They were slightly higher-gloss version of 90s crap like X-Cutioner's Song (and yes, X-Cutioner's Song was bad at the time), Phalanx Covenant, The Twelve, OZT.

Even the Utopia/SF era as a whole - there is some nice stuff in that period, but ultimately it is insubstantial and largely irrelevant to the franchise overall. (Not as insubstantial as the post-Secret Wars mess until now, of course, but then what is?)

I'm totally with you there.

[H-E-D]

Alternately - and this is not about the above post, it's just general bafflement on my part - I see people on social media waxing rhapsodic about how this book can't compare to the heights of stuff like, idk, Messiah Complex or Second Coming, and I'm like - those events were basically merchandising-friendly schlock I barely remember and can't be fucked about. It was all just plate-spinning for books which Marvel corporate no longer cared about at the time, with fan service **** like Bastion, etc. and a time travel event that meant nothing for a character (Hope) with no real future purpose. People acting like Hope, Cable/Bishop in the future, the Lights, Kyle/Yost time travel-y **** is somehow the height of the X-franchise is beyond me. I just don't get it. None of that **** had any impact, it was just time-wasting filler and an attempt to keep X-fans buying the latest summer crossover waiting for something to happen. They were slightly higher-gloss version of 90s crap like X-Cutioner's Song (and yes, X-Cutioner's Song was bad at the time), Phalanx Covenant, The Twelve, OZT.

Even the Utopia/SF era as a whole - there is some nice stuff in that period, but ultimately it is insubstantial and largely irrelevant to the franchise overall. (Not as insubstantial as the post-Secret Wars mess until now, of course, but then what is?)

This just seems like a bizarre way to define value and quality. Admittedly, a very common one in the comics community. But one that I think is problematic and troublesome.

The stories should not be judged for if they matter, or for what impact they have on the stories that came after. Impact is irrelevant to quality. What matters is the story itself.

Whether or not Hope was relevant post-AvX has no baring on the quality of the previous stories involving Hope. The idea that because Hope didn't become a headliner that remains prominent to this day does not somehow retroactively decrease the quality of, say, the KYost X-Force run, is patently ridiculous.

[powerpax]

The stories should not be judged for if they matter, or for what impact they have on the stories that came after. Impact is irrelevant to quality.

Yes, and I felt they had neither.

[TheDeadSpace]

This just seems like a bizarre way to define value and quality. Admittedly, a very common one in the comics community. But one that I think is problematic and troublesome.

The stories should not be judged for if they matter, or for what impact they have on the stories that came after. Impact is irrelevant to quality. What matters is the story itself.

Whether or not Hope was relevant post-AvX has no baring on the quality of the previous stories involving Hope. The idea that because Hope didn't become a headliner that remains prominent to this day does not somehow retroactively decrease the quality of, say, the KYost X-Force run, is patently ridiculous.

I think you make a very good point.

[CRaymond]

All day I’ve been wracking my brain with PsychoEFrost’s challenge. What would I have done with the 198? Utopia, probably... Hope-messiah, nah

[H-E-D]

Yes, and I felt they had neither.

You're entitled to that opinion, but using lack of impact as a criticism of a work, as you did, doesn't make your argument seem very strong.

For the record, I'm not very fond of either Second Coming or Messiah Complex, though I am a fan of several of the books that got looped into them. New X-Men and X-Factor, mainly. SC was better than MC, but... I mean, crossovers are very rarely the right way to tell a story anyways.

[TheCape]

Personally i like Messiah Complex, even if sometimes it felt like an excuse for ultra violence and i'm not very fond of Bishop Face-Heel Turn. But is still fun, i do not have strong feeling about his sequels though.

[powerpax]

You're entitled to that opinion, but using lack of impact as a criticism of a work, as you did, doesn't make your argument seem very strong.

We were debating specifically their impact or lack thereof, but I had several criticisms upfront. You're welcome to review.

[Dark-Jacket]

Grant Morrison killed the franchise for 20 years. Hopefully Hixman will salvage it back.

[ermac]

Grant Morrison killed the franchise for 20 years.

In what way? Why?

[CRaymond]

In what way? Why?

D-J is just the latest trumpet for the Morrison hate parade.

While Morrison's NXM was polarizing, I REALLY think the driving force from the last 20 years has been the M-Day/198 mandate. It was weird and sloppy and resulted in everything we're bitching about. Just prior to that the X-Men were in relative good shape, being driven by Whedon's "Astonishing" and Claremont's XSE storyline continuation. New ideas and obscure locations were being explored, classics were returning, and everything was colorful. It was M-Day that drained the life out of the books.

[bishopcruz]

Bendis' Uncanny X-men was actually pretty good.

X-23 hasn't been written well since Marjorie Liu stopped writing her.

[phoenixzero23]

Bendis' Uncanny X-men was actually pretty good.

I agree, It wasn't super deep but it was fun to me.
I had a better time with it than everything that came after until Red.

I also loved the time displaced O5, specially Jeen. Which existed thanks to Bendis too.

[powerpax]

I REALLY think the driving force from the last 20 years has been the M-Day/198 mandate. It was weird and sloppy and resulted in everything we're bitching about. Just prior to that the X-Men were in relative good shape, being driven by Whedon's "Astonishing" and Claremont's XSE storyline continuation. New ideas and obscure locations were being explored, classics were returning, and everything was colorful. It was M-Day that drained the life out of the books.

Agreed. It was designed to roll back Morrison's work and keep the X-Men cheap and in stasis for years. It succeeded.

I remember reading HoM - one of Bendis' most decompressed, pointless early events, at least in the main book itself - and feeling all the air go out of the balloon at the end in which the entire X-Men franchise is randomly unwound in one fell swoop. It almost felt slapped onto an otherwise largely inconsequential book, too. It was so tacky. It ruined everything. But it was exactly what editorial wanted, because they didn't know how to deal with the new status quo. They failed the franchise starting there.

[Ambaryerno]

Bendis' Uncanny X-men was actually pretty good.

X-23 hasn't been written well since Marjorie Liu stopped writing her.

Counterpoint: Marjorie Liu's writing of X-23 was actually NOT that good in the first place, and it's unfortunate that it's colored how many people think Laura should be written. Taylor and Tamaki are a much more natural evolution of KYost's portrayal than Liu's Robo-Laura.