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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by chillin'_chillclops View Post
    I think that's from avengers vs x-men
    Ah, one of the many X-Men storylines I skipped. I'm kind of glad I did, because I really don't get any joy out of seeing my two favorite Marvel teams fighting.

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterOfMagnetism
    Iceman being gay is the best thing to happen to the X-Men for a while. And despite what some people said, Iceman being gay made sense; if a character like Scott Summers, Reed Richards or Peter Parker came out as gay it wouldn't make sense because those characters have had long-lasting iconic relationships with women but Iceman who was portrayed as being insecure, was raised by a narrow-minded bigoted father and had various flings with women he couldn't sustain, it fit that Bobby could be a "closet-case".
    Bobby is my second favorite X-Man going back to roughly 1994, and I'm mostly okay with it.

    My problem was more that some posters presented it as an explanation and justification for why he could never sustain a relationship when I think most writers intended it to be that he couldn't sustain a relationship because he has Peter Pan Syndrome. Bobby's always been immature and has had trouble taking things seriously, including relationships. That's a very easy reason for why he never had a long-term girlfriend. So, I haven't read the main books in a while but I hope current writers stick with this idea. Bobby's identified as gay now. There's no backing out of that. It is what it is. But he shouldn't suddenly be great at relationships all of sudden now. He's still stupid, immature, goofball Bobby. He should still have many of the same relationship problems even if he's gay.

  2. #17
    Spectacular Member iacobusleo's Avatar
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    - The X-Men as a franchise (both movies and comics) is best enjoyed by picking and choosing your own canon. For example, I completely ignore Origins: Wolverine, and I ignore the stuff that does not fit my concept of X-Men as a narrative in the comics. In my headcanon, Rogue's character arc was completed by Carey (she masters her powers and becomes a counselor for the next generation), and there is none of that Uncanny Avengers backtrack.

    - The Decimation (spanning House of M to Avengers vs X-Men) was an interesting and worthwhile addition to the X-Men mythology. Intellectually I know it breaks the minority metaphor and throws away a lot of interesting potential set up by Morrison, but emotionally I bought the high stakes and I read it as the climax of the entire X-Men saga (the X-Men having to fight against extinction, and how that involves so many long running plot threads: The death of Jean/Phoenix which in my headcanon metaphysically led to the stagnation of mutantkind and how salvation can only come in the form of a reincarnated Phoenix in Hope Summers, Cable's true destiny in raising Hope, Bishop's true destiny in his plan to kill Hope, the resurrection of most of the major human villains in the Human Council, the very climactic 'final battle' feeling of Second Coming, the concept of the beloved Avengers who are typically backed by the government against the typically persecuted X-Men, an idea that is a long time coming, the rise and fall of Scott as leader of the mutant race etc). On paper it sounds amazing and though the execution is a little shaky at times if you pay close attention, I just bought it completely and used my own headcanon to make it work.

    - Related to the above, because I feel like the X-Men has reached its natural conclusion, anything starting from Bendis's run is irrelevant. The X-Men for me, ended with Cyclops a disgraced and hated public figure who nevertheless continues fighting the good fight using shady tactics together with Magneto and Illyana (as per the conclusion of AvX: Consequences), while the Jean Grey School for Higher Learning is a thriving institute that continues to fulfill Xavier's dream under the guidance of Wolverine and Storm (helped enormously by Kitty, as per the end of Aaron's Wolverine and the X-Men run).

    - UXM 600 would have been my perfect finale for the X-Men saga, but I cannot get past Bendis' dialogue and the overall feeling that nothing much happens in his run.

    - Scott Lobdell is not that bad. His plots are terrible, but he does great character work, particularly with Iceman, and I actually really like his writing of many of the characters. He is best enjoyed by just zeroing in on the character moments and just disregarding everything else that is going on.

    - This is heresy, but I think how I feel about Lobdell is similar to how I feel about Claremont. Claremont is the god at writing these characters, but to fully enjoy him I have to zero in on his character moments and disregard a lot of his plots as well (Arcade and Murderworld stuff, Mojoverse, his weird obsession with body transformations i.e. Storm turning into a space whale, Storm becoming a child). Thankfully, Claremont's plots are ALWAYS anchored in character, so even when things get ridiculous there is always something to emotionally connect with. This is why he still remains the best writer of X-Men.

    - Early Claremont was painful to go through. He started showing potential with Proteus, Dark Phoenix and DOFP, dipped down for quite a while (not at all a fan of the Brood Saga), but hit his stride by From the Ashes. Things from then on become much more character-based and that was when I started truly enjoying his run, all the way till the end.

    - Speaking of Brood, I'm not a fan of most of the alien stuff. Or the Savage Land. I've come around to appreciating these elements and think that an adaptation of the X-Men should include these things, but there needs to be some changes and efforts to modernize this stuff for me to take them seriously. As it is in the comics, I just see them merely as background noise for the truly interesting stuff going on, which is the characters.

    - Because to truly enjoy the X-Men comics I need to use a lot of headcanon, I feel like there has not been a definitive version of the franchise. I'm still waiting for a HBO style TV series, combining the rich characters and serialised storytelling of the comics with the more grounded film universe and its usually stellar cast.

    - I like JLaw's Mystique (largely First Class and DOFP).

    - I don't care about the costumes at all and actually think the iconic 90s ones are umm, quite garish and ugly. In fact the best costumes for me were the Ultimate X-Men ones, which are very similar to the black leather of the movies.
    Last edited by iacobusleo; 06-25-2016 at 11:00 AM.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by chillin'_chillclops View Post
    The Wolverine:Just plain boring. Remember how I said that the first two movies aren't as deep as they think they are ? Well at least they had some good ideas (which could have been better executed). This one tries to be deep and ends up being superdumb. They want me to see that wolverine is a tortured soul. All I see is an asshole. (I have taken an oath never to kill again, but a dead bear is enough to break my oath-wolverine)

    I think The Wolverine is worse than Origins:Wolverine.
    Seconded. There's a reason why The Wolverine has the lowest box office of the X-Men movies, it's extremely boring. I watched the extended version recently and man was it a snoozefest. Origins destroyed The Wolverine at the box office and that was at a lower price ticket with the bootleg copy out in advance being pirated AND with terrible reviews yet it DESTROYED The Wolverine. If it opened at China it would have beat The Wolverine in WW box office too. Just a terrible overrated boring movie, as evidenced by the lacklustre box office receipts.

    I can't imagine The Last Wolverine movie doing much better. It has an R rating coming off a money losing Apocalypse(domestic). I can't see it surpassing it's 127M budget in NA. I like Hugh Jackman's portrayal of Wolverine but I can't see him carrying a movie by himself. Origins had a cast of X-Men related characters while The Wolverine only had Jean Grey in the sequences. It will make money only because of the International markets.

  4. #19
    Mighty Member akiresu_'s Avatar
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    Franchise needs rebooting in the comics, not the movies.

    UXM #600 was the finale of the series, everything following is fanfiction.

  5. #20
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdamFTF View Post
    But he shouldn't suddenly be great at relationships all of sudden now. He's still stupid, immature, goofball Bobby. He should still have many of the same relationship problems even if he's gay.
    The adult Iceman pretty much hadn't really explored that, but the young one in All New was going that way the last time I saw.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by akiresu_ View Post
    Franchise needs rebooting in the comics, not the movies.
    I agree to some extent. Honestly, a reboot in both media wouldn't necessarily hurt.

    UXM #600 was the finale of the series, everything following is fanfiction.
    I don't think I've read that one either. There's just too much stuff in current X-Men stories that I just can't get into.

  7. #22
    Bad Guy CoCoBandz's Avatar
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    Frenzy is the hottest X-Woman.

    Storm would look better bald.

    All of Axis. . .wasn't that bad.

    89 to 91 X-Men >>> 92 X-Men.

    New X-Men SUCKS!

  8. #23
    Astonishing Member Celestial's Avatar
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    Chris Clermont isn't the end all be all of X-men writers.

    The movie franchise needs a reboot.

    I'm a Storm fan, but I hate over powered Storm.

    X-men: TAS has not aged well.
    Last edited by Celestial; 06-25-2016 at 12:28 PM.

  9. #24
    Astonishing Member AbnormallyNormal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iacobusleo View Post
    - The X-Men as a franchise (both movies and comics) is best enjoyed by picking and choosing your own canon. For example, I completely ignore Origins: Wolverine, and I ignore the stuff that does not fit my concept of X-Men as a narrative in the comics. In my headcanon, Rogue's character arc was completed by Carey (she masters her powers and becomes a counselor for the next generation), and there is none of that Uncanny Avengers backtrack.

    - The Decimation (spanning House of M to Avengers vs X-Men) was an interesting and worthwhile addition to the X-Men mythology. Intellectually I know it breaks the minority metaphor and throws away a lot of interesting potential set up by Morrison, but emotionally I bought the high stakes and I read it as the climax of the entire X-Men saga (the X-Men having to fight against extinction, and how that involves so many long running plot threads: The death of Jean/Phoenix which in my headcanon metaphysically led to the stagnation of mutantkind and how salvation can only come in the form of a reincarnated Phoenix in Hope Summers, Cable's true destiny in raising Hope, Bishop's true destiny in his plan to kill Hope, the resurrection of most of the major human villains in the Human Council, the very climactic 'final battle' feeling of Second Coming, the concept of the beloved Avengers who are typically backed by the government against the typically persecuted X-Men, an idea that is a long time coming, the rise and fall of Scott as leader of the mutant race etc). On paper it sounds amazing and though the execution is a little shaky at times if you pay close attention, I just bought it completely and used my own headcanon to make it work.

    - Related to the above, because I feel like the X-Men has reached its natural conclusion, anything starting from Bendis's run is irrelevant. The X-Men for me, ended with Cyclops a disgraced and hated public figure who nevertheless continues fighting the good fight using shady tactics together with Magneto and Illyana (as per the conclusion of AvX: Consequences), while the Jean Grey School for Higher Learning is a thriving institute that continues to fulfill Xavier's dream under the guidance of Wolverine and Storm (helped enormously by Kitty, as per the end of Aaron's Wolverine and the X-Men run).

    - UXM 600 would have been my perfect finale for the X-Men saga, but I cannot get past Bendis' dialogue and the overall feeling that nothing much happens in his run.

    - Scott Lobdell is not that bad. His plots are terrible, but he does great character work, particularly with Iceman, and I actually really like his writing of many of the characters. He is best enjoyed by just zeroing in on the character moments and just disregarding everything else that is going on.

    - This is heresy, but I think how I feel about Lobdell is similar to how I feel about Claremont. Claremont is the god at writing these characters, but to fully enjoy him I have to zero in on his character moments and disregard a lot of his plots as well (Arcade and Murderworld stuff, Mojoverse, his weird obsession with body transformations i.e. Storm turning into a space whale, Storm becoming a child). Thankfully, Claremont's plots are ALWAYS anchored in character, so even when things get ridiculous there is always something to emotionally connect with. This is why he still remains the best writer of X-Men.

    - Early Claremont was painful to go through. He started showing potential with Proteus, Dark Phoenix and DOFP, dipped down for quite a while (not at all a fan of the Brood Saga), but hit his stride by From the Ashes. Things from then on become much more character-based and that was when I started truly enjoying his run, all the way till the end.

    - Speaking of Brood, I'm not a fan of most of the alien stuff. Or the Savage Land. I've come around to appreciating these elements and think that an adaptation of the X-Men should include these things, but there needs to be some changes and efforts to modernize this stuff for me to take them seriously. As it is in the comics, I just see them merely as background noise for the truly interesting stuff going on, which is the characters.

    - Because to truly enjoy the X-Men comics I need to use a lot of headcanon, I feel like there has not been a definitive version of the franchise. I'm still waiting for a HBO style TV series, combining the rich characters and serialised storytelling of the comics with the more grounded film universe and its usually stellar cast.

    - I like JLaw's Mystique (largely First Class and DOFP).

    - I don't care about the costumes at all and actually think the iconic 90s ones are umm, quite garish and ugly. In fact the best costumes for me were the Ultimate X-Men ones, which are very similar to the black leather of the movies.
    Mostly agree with this.

    I think the best era of X-books was late 2000s, early 2010's. Post Decimation and Pre AvX. They had so many characters and there was this big sense of togetherness. "Age of X" has a great cast.

    I completely agree that you NEED to pick and choose and apply "headcanon" ( I would just say your own imagination and ability to interpret scenes ). People who only take the panels literally are kind of... nuts in my opinion. You NEED to use your own imagination to expand on the material, fill in gaps, make SENSE out of everything.

    I also agree with what you said about Claremont's run and how Brood sucked and Savage Land is overrated. and I agree I can appreciate those elements as adding to the diversity of X-themes but still think theyre fairly meh.

    Great points about how a lot of the more recent comic storylines actually DID have a lot of great sense to them and DID fulfill long-running character arcs like you said about Rogue, Bishop, Cable, and so forth. People keep trashing all X-comics since the early 90s... it's gotten insanely out of hand and needs to stop. READ THE ACTUAL MODERN COMICS people dont just assume they suck. They are great if you pay attention!!!

    Edit: At this point also I believe it is actually MORE controversial to say "Claremont was a really good writer" than the reverse !!! Weird stuff is happening in the fandom
    Last edited by AbnormallyNormal; 06-25-2016 at 12:34 PM.
    Chris Claremont, Peter David, Mike Carey, Cullen Bunn = canon. Others = fanfic.

  10. #25
    BANNED dragonmp93's Avatar
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    I think that X-men: Apocalypse is a good X-men movie.

  11. #26
    Bad Guy CoCoBandz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Avatar View Post
    Chris Clermont isn't the end all be all of X-men writers.

    The movie franchise needs a reboot.

    I'm a Storm fan, but I hate over powered Storm.

    X-men: TAS has not aged well.
    I feel the same about all of those.

  12. #27
    Mighty Member akiresu_'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoCoBandz View Post

    New X-Men SUCKS!
    Morrisson or Academy X?

  13. #28

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    X-Men has two main high points. The Claremont run, and The Morrison run. All else is either leading up to, or following in the shadow of, those two creative high points(sorry Stan, thanks for the ground work, but your run was weak).

    Until Disney/Marvel and Fox can stop this impasse, the comics should just stop. No More Mutants should have been just that. The end. They are just beating a dead horse at this point.
    Last edited by yogaflame; 06-25-2016 at 12:50 PM.
    Let the flames destroy all but that which is pure and true!

  14. #29
    Astonishing Member AbnormallyNormal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yogaflame View Post
    X-Men has two main high points. The Claremont run, and The Morrison run. All else is either leading up to, or following in the shadow of, those two creative high points(sorry Stan, thanks for the ground work, but your run was weak).

    Until Disney/Marvel and Fox can stop this impasse, the comics should just stop. No More Mutants should have been just that. The end. They are just beating a dead horse at this point.
    Interestingly while Morrison expressed admiration for Claremont he also seemingly despised certain aspects of his writing. And vice versa, Claremont instantly began retconning away parts of what Morrison did.

    I don't agree with you but I can appreciate your perspective

    I DO agree with you that the movie rights situation is largely the meta-setting to blame for much of the X-comic feeling "stagnant"
    Chris Claremont, Peter David, Mike Carey, Cullen Bunn = canon. Others = fanfic.

  15. #30
    Spectacular Member Nopozyzy's Avatar
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    My opinions:

    -Maggott was pretty cool and interesting

    -Adam X had tons of potential

    -Grant Morrison is the worst thing that happened to the X-Men

    -Over powered X-Men ruin stories and are boring

    -Magneto (as a good guy), Cyclops, Jean Grey, Rachel, Storm, Shadowcat, Cable, and Magik are all very boring

    -Mike Carey's Rogue and Mystique are awful

    -Vargas was the last interesting new villain

    -I don't like Shatterstar and Rictor as a couple

    -Joss Whedon's run was just plain bad

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