Your Unpopular/Controversial Opinions on the X-Universe

[spirit2011]

Speaking of crisis, my opinion is that the Marvel Universe setting where mutants is concerned has reached an untenable narrative dead end and, seeing as a Secret Wars was not enough to reset mutant-human relations to an even pH, maybe a DC-level Crisis would.

Agree. This looks like peak x-men. Not sure if there is a easy out

[Londo Bellian]

And the majority opinions do not want an out, but for this to remain indefinitely, with Hickman probably being convinced for biological immortality treatments.

[Omega Alpha]

Except not really? Its actually surprising how little has actually changed. Characters are not dead, but almost none of them are getting focus. Instead we're dealing with the same cartoon racist humans, and the X-men have just made the jump from 'working with some of our villains, but not the monsters' to 'working with the worst of the worst, and putting them in charge this time!'

Yeah, you're wrong:

.Not a single character from Orchis remotely qualifies as cartoon racist;
. Right now, we have books with characters like Kwannon, Apocalypse, the New Mutants, Black Tom, Sage, Jubilee, all getting more focus than they had in years, and with only 3 issues in each book so far;
. As for working with the villains, that's an oversimplification, and Powers of 10's main purpoise was to explain why the previous approach just will never work. And once you bring people like Apocalypse and Exodus to the table, you can't have them on the sidelines.

[People Of The Earth]

Yeah, you're wrong:

He's not.

.Not a single character from Orchis remotely qualifies as cartoon racist;

Good things pkingdom said humans, not Orchis specifically… Don't know why you would narrow down your answer to that specific terror group.
For example, the skinheads who showed up on Beak and Angel doorsteps holding their baby kids at gunpoint ARE cartoonishly racists, sorry.

Right now, we have books with characters like Kwannon, Apocalypse, the New Mutants, Black Tom, Sage, Jubilee, all getting more focus than they had in years, and with only 3 issues in each book so far;

That I agree with, though I wouldn't speak of "focus" for half that list, just "panel time".

. As for working with the villains, that's an oversimplification,

No, that's a fact.

and Powers of 10's main purpoise was to explain why the previous approach just will never work.

And that's not.

And once you bring people like Apocalypse and Exodus to the table, you can't have them on the sidelines.

You can.
They had all agreed to respect Xavier's rules when they set foot on Krakoa, Xavier could have absolutely considered them as lambda Citizen, instead of elevating them into governing positions and key roles on the island.
Let's not pretend here.

[Killerbee911]

Speaking of crisis, my opinion is that the Marvel Universe setting where mutants is concerned has reached an untenable narrative dead end and, seeing as a Secret Wars was not enough to reset mutant-human relations to an even pH, maybe a DC-level Crisis would.

Nope

1. Aliens attack earth, defeat normal heroes
2. Krakoa set up and defeat aliens
3. People of earth are generally happy with mutants, The UN and many countries pass laws against discriminating against mutants

Even with laws to stop discrimination people will still hate and fear mutants but laws in most major countries stop the genocidal kill all mutants stories. The X-men are recognized as heroes and UN sanction(again) to police mutant issues around the world but since they are sanctioned by the UN to remain neutral the X-men leave Krakoa, Without the immortality around most of villains leave(or kick out off) Krakoa. Krakoa is mortally wounded against the aliens it moves until finally settle off the coast of Africa where close where Genosha was and dies becomes a normal island. X-men franchise back to normal. It is not hard to fix the state of X-men all that is need major countries not to be dicks to mutants.

[Londo Bellian]

So Gwenpool is now a Krakoan, because spoilers:

the island thinks her weaponized medium-awareness (from being a person originating in our reality) is an X-gene ability.

end of spoilers

[Omega Alpha]

He's not.



Good things pkingdom said humans, not Orchis specifically… Don't know why you would narrow down your answer to that specific terror group.
For example, the skinheads who showed up on Beak and Angel doorsteps holding their baby kids at gunpoint ARE cartoonishly racists, sorry.



That I agree with, though I wouldn't speak of "focus" for half that list, just "panel time".



No, that's a fact.



And that's not.



You can.
They had all agreed to respect Xavier's rules when they set foot on Krakoa, Xavier could have absolutely considered them as lambda Citizen, instead of elevating them into governing positions and key roles on the island.
Let's not pretend here.

Yeah, none of what you said it's true, sorry:

a- The main human antagonists not being cartoon villains disproves his point; even those villains from NM yet we don't much (I haven't read #4).
b- Yes, Apocalypse and Exodus will just sit quietly in his corner, follow orders and lay their head down. Sure.
c- Powers of 10 absolutely shows that all the previous approaches- X-men's traditional (4th life), isolationism (5th), "curing" mutants who'd like to (life #3), Magneto taking over the world (8th), Apocalypse giving them hell (9th), killing all the Trasks (7th), doesn't work. Mutantkind divided particularly doesn't work, as seen in the 4th and 8th lives (probably the 6th, too, and I doubt no mutant opposed Apocalypse on 9th).
d- You're expecting everyone to have spotlight with only 3 issues?

[Sutekh]

b- Yes, Apocalypse and Exodus will just sit quietly in his corner, follow orders and lay their head down. Sure.

So much to disagree with, but this one leaps out at me.

Have you read anything with Exodus? He's a follower. Give him an alpha, like Magneto, or Sinister, or Apocalypse, or Selene, or *Xavier,* and he'll tag along like a puppy on a leash.

Now Apocalypse might not be viable in a non-leadership position, because he'd naturally assume one anyway, and destabilize the current regime, but Exodus can play 'the Dragon' just fine, and be somebody's lieutenant. Selene and Sinister don't exactly thrive in the limelight, and seem more comfortable creeping around behind the scenes, sitting behind the throne, pulling strings and scheming schemes and playing long games that might take generations to see fruition (as Selene did back in Nova Roma, a mere 'senator's wife' who ran things behind the scenes).

Hmm. Apocalypse. Exodus. Genesis. Lots of biblical names these mutants have going on. Next we need a precog who calls herself Revelations.

[Londo Bellian]

You mean the Emperor of Man--er, Mutant?

[People Of The Earth]

Yeah, none of what you said it's true, sorry:

a- The main human antagonists not being cartoon villains disproves his point; even those villains from NM yet we don't much (I haven't read #4).

Again, unless I didn't read well the post, he said "humans" (id est sapiens) not "Orchis" or "main human antagonists".
Orchis not fitting that mold doesn't detract other villains from fitting it, you can't cherry pick.
Beyond Orchis, you have a sapien nihilist in Fallen Angel, government stooges in Marauders, that sapien gang in New Mutants and this "league of shadows" made up of sapiens in X-Force.
And sapien mobs in Excalibur I guess.
Of this lot, there's at least three group of "antagonists" (and I use the term loosely for some of them) who fit the "cartoonish racists" moniker: the stooges in Marauders, the gang in New Mutants and the mobs in Excalibur.
I Don't know what your definition of cartoonish is if you Don't consider that gang of sapiens in NM as such btw (they are peak cartoonish imo) but to each its own.

b- Yes, Apocalypse and Exodus will just sit quietly in his corner, follow orders and lay their head down. Sure.

If Xavier had any doubt about the ability of said villains to respect his authority and his rules, then he wouldn't have invited them on Krakoa in the first place.
Anyway, that's not even the point. You said it couldn't be done when it really can, it's just Xavier decided he had uses/plans for them with Moira and Magneto hence why they are in the roles they are now. That's the only Reason.

c- Powers of 10 absolutely shows that all the previous approaches- X-men's traditional (4th life), isolationism (5th), "curing" mutants who'd like to (life #3), Magneto taking over the world (8th), Apocalypse giving them hell (9th), killing all the Trasks (7th), doesn't work. Mutantkind divided particularly doesn't work, as seen in the 4th and 8th lives (probably the 6th, too, and I doubt no mutant opposed Apocalypse on 9th).

Yes, and? All of this stem from Moira various expériences who are factually limited - so far - to ten-ish lives.
That's ten different timelines.
We all know there are many more timelines and futures than those ten in Marvel Comics.
Saying things like "it never work" - or "it Always end-up like this" for that matter - is Simply not true.

From her limited scope of expériences Moira is allowed to Believe that it is the truth, but we as readers know better.
Even in-universe, there are plenty of people who could point out the limits of her reasoning.

d- You're expecting everyone to have spotlight with only 3 issues?

No, I was only pointing out that having panel time doesn't automatically equal focus.
Of the ones on your list, I'd say only Kwannon, (some of) the New Mutants and to a lesser degree Apoc and Jubilee fit the bill in that regard.

[TheRay]

Giant Size X-Men: Northstar finds Sunfire on Grindr.

I don’t think they’ve established Grindr as canon.

[CRaymond]

Have you read anything with Exodus?

Exodus, for all his power and potential, sucks as a charismatic villain.

[jwatson]

Sitting here cackling my butt off at how all the posters who were like where the humans are don't have a word to say about human on human violence and how mutants had security protecting their human allies moreso than even themselves and their home island. IT really feels like it took some serious credibility from some i was at least trying to give the benefit of the doubt. I love that just about every thing they were rallying against was debunked and it left me with a warm kind of pettiness inside.

[Celestialbodies]

Hated Bendis handling of almost every X-character he touched, he has good ideas. But his execution was almost always forced, his scripts consistently had characters OOC, the decisions he had characters make seem mostly for controversy. I respect what he did for the X-men during that period as he brought a lot of attention to the franchise and he did a lot with Jean. However he as a writer has always been annoying because he has a great deal of knowledge of continuity, yet he blatantly ignores it to tell stories that are almost always imo worse because he ignores glaring plotholes.


Case and point the extended period of time it took Jean to mastery her powers for story reasons...yet Rachel was literally living in the same mansion with her, was incredibly equipped to deal with an "out of control" Jean. But because that wasn't the story he wanted to tell, he ignores her for most his run only to then have Emma train her when her own daughter was ready and available throughout his entire run.

[pkingdom]

c- Powers of 10 absolutely shows that all the previous approaches- X-men's traditional (4th life), isolationism (5th), "curing" mutants who'd like to (life #3), Magneto taking over the world (8th), Apocalypse giving them hell (9th), killing all the Trasks (7th), doesn't work. Mutantkind divided particularly doesn't work, as seen in the 4th and 8th lives (probably the 6th, too, and I doubt no mutant opposed Apocalypse on 9th).

Powers of X completely failed to demonstrate that, and that's the biggest failing of limiting Moira to 10 lives. Essentially, Moira is doing a Madoka Magica/Edge of Tomorrow type thing where she relives her life trying to solve a problem. Except in those other shows, they imply that the character lived through hundreds, if not thousands, of timelines. That way, when they panic and declare that things are 'the only way', it holds weight because they've literally had all the time in the world to try everything else.

Moira had 10 lives. First two she didn't try.
hird life got killed by Mystique before accomplishing anything, so there's no telling how things would have worked out.
4th life we don't know any specifics besides Sentinals seemingly killing her and Xavier. Everything could have been fine without them for mutants after that.
5th life, they tried isolationism. We got almost no details, besides a mutant army falling to Sentinels. No idea on the how and why besides vague racism. Could have been Cassandra Nova for all we know.
6th life doesn't tell us anything. Mutants lost a war with technology, but we don't know any of the how and why that happened. Because it takes place so removed from continuity it doesn't actually tell us anything about what went wrong. Hell, we don't even know for certain that the tech people were evil. They were certainly creepy, and the Phalanx was too, but that's all we really know.
7th life, Moira wiped out the Trask family, but Sentinels were still built. This doesn't really make any sense, and we don't know any details. Moira was killed by Master Mold, and again, we don't have any confirmation that mutants were totally doomed after that point.
8th life, Moira through her support behind Magneto and started conquering. Magneto was stopped by mutants and other heroes and she died in a prison escape. Again, no guarantee things went terribly for mutants afterwards.
9th life, Moira woke up Apocalypse and killed Xavier and Magneto. She started a war and eventually lost. We don't know the details on how the war started or the Sentinels were built, but they were likely rushed out in response to Apocalypse.

Given that we know almost nothing about how all of these went wrong, to say Moira tried everything is laughable. She tried the most extreme options each time, and threw her hands up when she failed. Maybe her upcoming series will fill in some of these holes, but right now there's nothing presented to show that this specific thing with Krakoa is 'the only way'. Plus, we've actually seen alternate futures where things have worked out. Off the top of my head, Ironheart and All New Wolverine had futures where everything was pretty great for everybody.