Your Unpopular/Controversial Opinions on the X-Universe

[Zelena]

Eventually yes, right now not really.

For now the only downside is the expectation of a fresh start with mutants who have a lot of history. This really only impacts a few, mostly the X-Men who would be carried through by their faith in Xavier, the overwhelmingly positive boost in mutant status and the return of what they view as their greatest failures, the mutants who died on their watch.

For example what would Cyclops or Wolverine (or any X-Man) tolerate to revive a schoolbus full of kids who got blown up? What would Emma Frost do to revive the Hellions? What would the New Mutants give to revive Wolfsbane? What would Gambit or Storm give to resurrect the Morlocks?

Ah, gratitude. It's what holds them back. Did they express it to Xavier?

[Kisinith]

Especially considering what sort of wool they've called Xavier out on pulling over their eyes in the past?

--Jean having her traumatic memories forcefully suppressed,

--Ororo being lied to about her heritage,

--Scott having an entire sibling erased from his mind,

To name a few. Any one of those characters should have, by right, turned around, looked Xavier in the eye and asked "And why should we take your word for it?"

Yeah and then he died and all his sins were forgiven, See everything post AvX. Also

Xavier: "To me my X-Men"
The X-Men: "Holy **** you're not dead"
Xavier: "Nope I got better, also I have a plan"
The X-Men: "...Ok?"
Xavier: "We're going to establish a mutant nation on the island of Krakoa and buy human acceptance with specially developed drugs to make their lives better."
The X-Men: "...ok..."
Xavier: "We're going to repurpose the hellfire club as a trade empire to move the drug and you're going to protect and rescue mutants"
The X-Men: "...its worth a shot but, not sure we can trust them..."
Xavier: "Well, we need the participation of all the mutants so I need you to forgive or overlook what they may have done to you."
The X-Men: "Are you kidding me?"
Xavier: "Nope because their participation also allows us to use these fancy resurrection protocols and we can then bring back any mutant who's died in the past decade."
The X-Men: "...wait what?"
Xavier: "Yup, every mutant but you have to let bygones be bygones. You don't have to like them, or trust them but you do have to tolerate them and try and move past the past."
The X-Men: "...wait what?"
Xavier: "Yup"
The X-Men: "Done"

Now obviously that was written tongue in cheek but I doubt it would have taken much more than that.

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

Yeah and then he died and all his sins were forgiven, See everything post AvX. Also

Xavier: "To me my X-Men"
The X-Men: "Holy **** you're not dead"
Xavier: "Nope I got better, also I have a plan"
The X-Men: "...Ok?"
Xavier: "We're going to establish a mutant nation on the island of Krakoa and buy human acceptance with specially developed drugs to make their lives better."
The X-Men: "...ok..."
Xavier: "We're going to repurpose the hellfire club as a trade empire to move the drug and you're going to protect and rescue mutants"
The X-Men: "...its worth a shot but, not sure we can trust them..."
Xavier: "Well, we need the participation of all the mutants so I need you to forgive or overlook what they may have done to you."
The X-Men: "Are you kidding me?"
Xavier: "Nope because their participation also allows us to use these fancy resurrection protocols and we can then bring back any mutant who's died in the past decade."
The X-Men: "...wait what?"
Xavier: "Yup, every mutant but you have to let bygones be bygones. You don't have to like them, or trust them but you do have to tolerate them and try and move past the past."
The X-Men: "...wait what?"
Xavier: "Yup"
The X-Men: "Done"

Now obviously that was written tongue in cheek but I doubt it would have taken much more than that.

Yeah, see, it's when you start getting to the past villains and overlooking what they may have done that I still need more convincing, tongue-in-cheek or not. Still seems really shallow that anyone would just go along with it because 'Xavier said so,' again, after all he's pulled.

[Zelena]

Yeah and then he died and all his sins were forgiven, See everything post AvX. Also

Xavier: "To me my X-Men"
The X-Men: "Holy **** you're not dead"
Xavier: "Nope I got better, also I have a plan"
The X-Men: "...Ok?"
Xavier: "We're going to establish a mutant nation on the island of Krakoa and buy human acceptance with specially developed drugs to make their lives better."
The X-Men: "...ok..."
Xavier: "We're going to repurpose the hellfire club as a trade empire to move the drug and you're going to protect and rescue mutants"
The X-Men: "...its worth a shot but, not sure we can trust them..."
Xavier: "Well, we need the participation of all the mutants so I need you to forgive or overlook what they may have done to you."
The X-Men: "Are you kidding me?"
Xavier: "Nope because their participation also allows us to use these fancy resurrection protocols and we can then bring back any mutant who's died in the past decade."
The X-Men: "...wait what?"
Xavier: "Yup, every mutant but you have to let bygones be bygones. You don't have to like them, or trust them but you do have to tolerate them and try and move past the past."
The X-Men: "...wait what?"
Xavier: "Yup"
The X-Men: "Done"

Now obviously that was written tongue in cheek but I doubt it would have taken much more than that.

Between the "Yup" et the "Done", the time could have stretched a little bit with extra gnashing of teeth and some heated discussions.
It would have been nice to be set up though… This Hickman has no sense of melodrama.

[jwatson]

No less logical then people agreeing to Kill no human when humans are actively trying to kill them. No less logical than mutants showing up whenever the avengers call despite not getting the same treatment. No less logical than mutants to expect humans to be okay with them creating a nation when the inhumans were able to just plop down in the center of new york and do whatever they wanted.

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

Between the "Yup" et the "Done", the time could have stretched a little bit with extra gnashing of teeth and some heated discussions.
It would have been nice to be set up though… This Hickman has no sense of melodrama.

Ok yeah, even just one issue with that approach in mind would have added so much! Without it, again, everything just feels way too convenient.

[Kisinith]

Well as a sufferer of both trauma and anxiety attacks (separately I must add) I've never experienced that in my life after either. I don't doubt the legitimacy of the source, however, but I do doubt the writers to have thought that deeply about it.

To me, it seems like a convenient way for the writer to not ask the harder questions involved, as in "This is the all the answer you're going to get."

In any case, if it is truly just such euphoria talking then that still doesn't sound like a particularly healthy thing on Rahne's part.

I work with trauma cases so unfortunately I've seen this way too often. Also to be fair this is my interpretation, I freely submit it as an assumption because its fits with what I've observed. I have no way of knowing if or how much the authors have pursued this. As far as is it healthy... it depends, it's not unhealthy as long as the underlying trauma is still dealt with. If not then it will probably return to anxiety and depression eventually. However keep in mind in this case, comic books. Just like we're not going to get a sociological dissertation on nation building we're also not going to get a treatise on psychology and mental disorders.

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

I work with trauma cases so unfortunately I've seen this way too often. Also to be fair this is my interpretation, I freely submit it as an assumption because its fits with what I've observed. I have no way of knowing if or how much the authors have pursued this. As far as is it healthy... it depends, it's not unhealthy as long as the underlying trauma is still dealt with. If not then it will probably return to anxiety and depression eventually. However keep in mind in this case, comic books. Just like we're not going to get a sociological dissertation on nation building we're also not going to get a treatise on psychology and mental disorders.

I never said we needed to see a psychological dissertation or such on it though; all I'm asking for is actual reaction and emotion within the narrative, which as far as I can see, is missing.

And the reason I'm so vocal about it being missing? Well, I've seen it dealt with before, and well within comic books, including X-titles. Gambit's exploration of what it means to tread the line between heroics and villainy, all dealt with succinctly in 12 or so issues, Rogue grappling with the idea of seeking and never really attaining closure in less, Laura's PTSD, Laura's pursuing of recovery (even if it was never truly realised, which in itself is realistic) ect, ect. All of these were delicate matters handled, not at the expense of larger plots, but as a means to inform it.

[Kisinith]

Yeah, see, it's when you start getting to the past villains and overlooking what they may have done that I still need more convincing, tongue-in-cheek or not. Still seems really shallow that anyone would just go along with it because 'Xavier said so,' again, after all he's pulled.

Except thats when you have the single most persuasive argument Xavier has, letting the past be the past allows them to resurrect every dead mutant. That one thing alone would nearly instantaneously overcome every concern and argument any of the X-Men would have had. Working with the villains gets you Sinisters DNA database which is needed to move forward. As soon as thats put on the table I don't see any X-Man arguing against it.

From a meta perspective, I fully admit that I would have liked to see this scene. However its not needed because it really is a no brainer. The positives offered by Krakoa so significantly outweigh that one downside that I can't see it being a major sticking point.

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

Except thats when you have the single most persuasive argument Xavier has, letting the past be the past allows them to resurrect every dead mutant. That one thing alone would nearly instantaneously overcome every concern and argument any of the X-Men would have had. Working with the villains gets you Sinisters DNA database which is needed to move forward. As soon as thats put on the table I don't see any X-Man arguing against it.

From a meta perspective, I fully admit that I would have liked to see this scene. However its not needed because it really is a no brainer. The positives offered by Krakoa so significantly outweigh that one downside that I can't see it being a major sticking point.

...No it doesn't. That is not the most persuasive argument at all; that's the absolute cheapest.

I couldn't fucking do that with my rapist even if he was holding out the cure to cancer; mainly because I know what kind of a monster he is. Any 'altruism' types like that offer isn't altruistic; it comes at a price that further benefits them.

Say you're suddenly expected to live in the same space or, worse, potentially work with someone who's caused you great harm and trauma. Could you just let 'the past be the past'? Could you truly be in the same room as someone who's psychologically tortured you and put you through the worst kinds of hell just because someone, who has also consequently been proven to have been manipulating you, says so? Without any reason other than "it's for the best."

Some of the worst abusers in the X-universe have, essentially, been rewarded and feel very much justified in their past actions or attitudes. They're in charge, helping to run the show without being made to pay any reparations to fix the trauma they've inflicted.

I understand what you mean from a political standpoint, but even then it isn't a no-brainer.

[The Quiet Councilor]

Honestly, no, because there didn't seem to be any thought behind it.

Even then, I wasn't even speaking of her reacting to trauma, necessarily, but to the conflict that it puts between herself and her belief system. In fact, it feels far too convenient to simply brush it away as her feeling 'unburdened' so quickly.

There was no introspection, no reflection upon what it actually means for her to be 'free of sin' (because who decides that, Ororo or the god she believes in?) nothing. She just basically shrugged and said "Ok." AKA; Lazy writing.

Except that we know Hickman has been preparing this stuff for over a year. We know that he’s had his finger on the pulse of the stories to which these characters have been subjected. We also know he has a track record of being methodical in everything he does. Calling it lazy is, frankly, absurd.

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

Except that we know Hickman has been preparing this stuff for over a year. We know that he’s had his finger on the pulse of the stories to which these characters have been subjected. We also know he has a track record of being methodical in everything he does. Calling it lazy is, frankly, absurd.

That makes it worse: he's had this much time to prepare and ask himself these questions, yet he hasn't? In fact, all he seems to do is dismiss it in-narrative. Maybe it was too hard for him to answer, though; as a result nothing is challenged, it all just happens at his say-so. This feels methodical so far as world-building, but not particularly emotionally intelligent where the characters are concerned.

[The Quiet Councilor]

That makes it worse: he's had this much time to prepare and ask himself these questions, yet he hasn't? In fact, all he seems to do is dismiss it in-narrative. Nothing is challenged, it all just happens at his say-so. This feels methodical, but not particularly emotional intelligent.

He’s establishing the world. We know the conflict is coming, or, at least, some of us do.

[Kisinith]

I never said we needed to see a psychological dissertation or such on it though; all I'm asking for is actual reaction and emotion within the narrative, which as far as I can see, is missing.

And the reason I'm so vocal about it being missing? Well, I've seen it dealt with before, and well within comic books, including X-titles. Gambit's exploration of what it means to tread the line between heroics and villainy, all dealt with succinctly in 12 or so issues, Rogue grappling with the idea of seeking and never really attaining closure in less, Laura's PTSD, Laura's pursuing of recovery (even if it was never truly realised, which in itself is realistic) ect, ect. All of these were delicate matters handled, not at the expense of larger plots, but as a means to inform it.

Correct me if I'm wrong but none of those issues were dealt with in 1 issue. They had a lot of time to explore them in depth. Gambits took a year (12 issues by your reckoning) and that doesn't include the long simmering story points that led into it (mutant massacre, the gradual buildup on if he could be trusted) Laura's issues have been a continuing theme of hers for years across multiple books.

This goes back to one of the points you and I have discussed quite a bit regarding HoX/PoX/DoX. The criticisms you raise are potentially valid but are premature. HoX/PoX wasn't about the X-Men and features them all sparingly. That means we are only 4 issues into the new status quo and they are simultaneously dealing with a lot of concurrent issues and still engaging in world building with 20 or so pages a book. Expecting them to be fully dealt with, right now, 4 issues in is totally unrealistic. Hell most issues being are only being touched upon because they will be recurring themes throughout DoX.

[Kisinith]

...No it doesn't. That is not the most persuasive argument at all; that's the absolute cheapest.

I couldn't fucking do that with my rapist even if he was holding out the cure to cancer; mainly because I know what kind of a monster he is. Any 'altruism' types like that offer isn't altruistic; it comes at a price that further benefits them.

Say you're suddenly expected to live in the same space or, worse, potentially work with someone who's caused you great harm and trauma. Could you just let 'the past be the past'? Could you truly be in the same room as someone who's psychologically tortured you and put you through the worst kinds of hell just because someone, who has also consequently been proven to have been manipulating you, says so? Without any reason other than "it's for the best."

Some of the worst abusers in the X-universe have, essentially, been rewarded and feel very much justified in their past actions or attitudes. They're in charge, helping to run the show without being made to pay any reparations to fix the trauma they've inflicted.

I understand what you mean from a political standpoint, but even then it isn't a no-brainer.

For the average person, yeah I agree but these aren't average people. These are people (those who chose to don the X) who continually choose to suffer so that others don't have to. And in 1 fell swoop they are being offered a fix for what they would view as their greatest personal failures, the deaths of friends, teammates and students. To think that they would let personal sacrifice stand in the way of undoing those deaths is contrary to everything they are. What would Storm endure to resurrect the Morlocks? Cyclops to resurrect his brothers? Any of the X-men to bring back a busload of kids? Its the easiest question in the world.

The difference to the situation you described is its not nameless faceless altruism, its personal, its saving a family member or a personal friend or undoing what they view as their worst failure.