Your Unpopular/Controversial Opinions on the X-Universe

[scourge]

"Stories yet to be told" is a stupid cop out by someone who shouldn't have the job they do.

For another one:
Despite what others have claimed and will no doubt come snarl about, I don't think what was done with 'The Five' will do anything but harm those characters. It may have made them 'important' in universe but mostly seems to have made them non-characters. Just plot devices that are only going to get killed off or otherwise taken off the board by some 'OMG look how evil and powerful they are!!!' big bad Hickman probably has stored up his sleeve.

[Kisinith]

Doesn't have to be sorted, but establishing it would have been nice. Also, I'd take what you hear from interviews with a grain of salt; trust me, they rarely pan out to mean that they'll actually address what people are wondering (seen so many empty promises never fulfilled over the years this way.)

Its fair to feel that way and god knows the X-Office does not deserve the benefit of the doubt however many of these things are being seeded, they are being established in the stories themselves. Look at Apocalypse and Sinister, just as two quick examples.

Apocalypse has had a previous encounter/relationship with Krakoa, fighting a forgotten war there with his original horsemen. Breaking the original island into two, sacrificing his horsemen to stop that conflict and he would give anything to restore them.

Sinister in addition to having the mutant database in previous Moira life cycles developed the chimeras and betrayed the Mutants. He's been shown working on Chimeras early (Current Sinister is the 1st), has been shown looking for loopholes around Krakoan resurrection rules and coveting the genetic materials of the Omega mutants.

All of this is new information that wasn't there prior to HoX, neither are plot points that have been solved these are hints of what is to come. This also comes back to looking at Hickman's style itself. This has been how he's written in the past, lots of build up, lots of interconnected parts, foreshadowing and Chekhov's guns.
(If you're not famillair with it "Chekhov's gun" is a dramatic principle that states that every element in a story must be necessary, and irrelevant elements should be removed; elements should not appear to make "false promises" by never coming into play. The statement is recorded in letters by Anton Chekhov several times, with some variation:
"Remove everything that has no relevance to the story. If you say in the first chapter that there is a rifle hanging on the wall, in the second or third chapter it absolutely must go off. If it's not going to be fired, it shouldn't be hanging there.")

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

"Stories yet to be told" is a stupid cop out by someone who shouldn't have the job they do.

For another one:
Despite what others have claimed and will no doubt come snarl about, I don't think what was done with 'The Five' will do anything but harm those characters. It may have made them 'important' in universe but mostly seems to have made them non-characters. Just plot devices that are only going to get killed off or otherwise taken off the board by some 'OMG look how evil and powerful they are!!!' big bad Hickman probably has stored up his sleeve.

Yeah, it kinda has painted an inevitable target on their backs.

Here's one to add: The religious reverie everyone seems to hold for these five both scares and annoys me. I understand why what they're doing is so miraculous, but having them constantly referred to like these precious biblical figures is just...it's half of why Krakoa comes off as a cult.

[Kisinith]

"Stories yet to be told" is a stupid cop out by someone who shouldn't have the job they do.

For another one:
Despite what others have claimed and will no doubt come snarl about, I don't think what was done with 'The Five' will do anything but harm those characters. It may have made them 'important' in universe but mostly seems to have made them non-characters. Just plot devices that are only going to get killed off or otherwise taken off the board by some 'OMG look how evil and powerful they are!!!' big bad Hickman probably has stored up his sleeve.

Except for the fact Hickman has strongly gone on record as hating that kind of development. The resurrection protocols are not the main focus of the story, they were a tool he used to put all the dead and broken X-Men characters back into play. He's also stated that what he want's to do, long term, is alter the deconstructive death spiral the X-Books have been in for a long while now. That when he leaves he wants to put all of the toys back on the shelf for the next writer. To stop the tendency to use shock deaths to artificially raise the stakes

[Lucyinthesky]

Why was he a terrible person or why was a worse person? Or both?

Both I think Xavier bad actions had been used to justify other characters bad actions using retcons upon retcons but still I don`t see him as a terrible people, or at least no more terrible than Wolverine, Emma, Scott or Jean.

Obviously interpreting a character like that is down to personal interpretation, so here's mine. I thought he was a bad person for lying to his friends and allies constantly, even mind controlling them when he felt the need too. Deadly Genesis alone was enough for me to never care about him again. What HoXPoX did was take Xavier's flaws and magnify them 100 fold. They made it so that from Day 1 of the X-men, he didn't believe a thing he was saying about coexistence. He and Moira always thought it was doomed, and strung everyone along to get them to this point. They allowed every terrible thing that happened to the X-men to happen, despite having at least some warnings courtesy of Moira.

I don`t have that take, imo the fact Moira knows some things doesn`t mean she or charles can control what will happen in the future, they did what they could with the information they had but given how different each of Moira`s lifes has been them making decisions on that information doesn`t mean new events will not happen. For instance I can see them seeking Krakoa like they did during deadly genesis but not expecting to lose their students during the mission. Same with Jean becoming phoenix or Genosha being destroyed, they knew something like that COULD happen not that it would definitely happen.

I personally don't find him interesting, and felt he was better as a dead symbol than an actual character. He's a ludicrously privileged straight white guy with a power that let him coast through life. He's probably one of the worst types of character you could use to make you arguments about minority struggles.

Being rich, straight and white isn`t a crime, him abusing his power and position to abuse or use others is imo, which he has done in the past but in complex situations, I would say he`s complicated not evil but I agree with you that using him as the main voice to represent mutants doesn`t make much sense, I will have to ask Claremont or other marvel writers their take on that.

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

Its fair to feel that way and god knows the X-Office does not deserve the benefit of the doubt however many of these things are being seeded, they are being established in the stories themselves. Look at Apocalypse and Sinister, just as two quick examples.

Apocalypse has had a previous encounter/relationship with Krakoa, fighting a forgotten war there with his original horsemen. Breaking the original island into tow, sacrificing his horsemen to stop that conflict and he would give anything to restore them.

Sinister in addition to having the mutant database in previous Moira life cycles developed the chimeras and betrayed the Mutants. He's been shown working on Chimeras early (Current Sinister is the 1st), has been shown looking for loopholes around Krakoan resurrection rules and coveting the genetic materials of the Omega mutants.

All of this is new information that wasn't there prior to HoX, neither are plot points that have been solved these are hints of what is to come. This also comes back to looking at Hickman's style itself. This has been how he's written in the past, lots of build up, lots of interconnected parts, foreshadowing and Chekhov's guns.
(If you're not famillair with it "Chekhov's gun" is a dramatic principle that states that every element in a story must be necessary, and irrelevant elements should be removed; elements should not appear to make "false promises" by never coming into play. The statement is recorded in letters by Anton Chekhov several times, with some variation:
"Remove everything that has no relevance to the story. If you say in the first chapter that there is a rifle hanging on the wall, in the second or third chapter it absolutely must go off. If it's not going to be fired, it shouldn't be hanging there.")

Fair enough for Apocalypse and Sinister; but what about characters such as Scott, Jean and Storm? They're just on-board unquestioningly from day one; that's the kind of establishing we need more than Apocalypse and Sinister. It doesn't have to be done right on page one, or even resolved in an issue, but just seeing a hint of it well before this would have put so many complaints and worries to rest. To add it later just feels like an after-thought; like, say hypothetically "Oh, Jean's only questioning Xavier now? After the one million or so reasons she had to do so when he first pitched this to her?"

Additionally, just because it's part of Hickman's style of writing doesn't mean it'll make it any more effective in the long run (if he's even put any thought into it at all.) It feels disorganised to me. A little too convenient.

[scourge]

Except for the fact Hickman has strongly gone on record as hating that kind of development. The resurrection protocols are not the main focus of the story, they were a tool he used to put all the dead and broken X-Men characters back into play. He's also stated that what he want's to do, long term, is alter the deconstructive death spiral the X-Books have been in for a long while now. That when he leaves he wants to put all of the toys back on the shelf for the next writer. To stop the tendency to use shock deaths to artificially raise the stakes

He can say a lot of things but so far the books show different.

[pkingdom]

I don`t have that take, imo the fact Moira knows some things doesn`t mean she or charles can control what will happen in the future, they did what they could with the information they had but given how different each of Moira`s lifes has been them making decisions on that information doesn`t mean new events will not happen. For instance I can see them seeking Krakoa like they did during deadly genesis but not expecting to lose their students during the mission. Same with Jean becoming phoenix or Genosha being destroyed, they knew something like that COULD happen not that it would definitely happen.

Its kind of a Catch-22 situation with Moira. We got one page of a montage of major X moments, including the Phoenix 5, as a way of showing things in one of her lives was similar/identical. Her other lives diverged so quickly that they don't tell us much. Which leaves us with this: either circumstances in each of her lives was so different that they don't tell us anything concrete, and thus, the knowledge was almost worthless and shouldn't have been able to convince Xavier so easily; OR the circumstances were the same/close enough that Moira and Xavier knew what was going to happen before this point, and let it happen for their own reasons.

[Kisinith]

Fair enough for Apocalypse and Sinister; but what about characters such as Scott, Jean and Storm? They're just on-board unquestioningly from day one; that's the kind of establishing we need more than Apocalypse and Sinister. It doesn't have to be done right on page one, or even resolved in an issue, but just seeing a hint of it well before this would have put so many complaints and worries to rest. To add it later just feels like an after-thought; like, say hypothetically "Oh, Jean's only questioning Xavier now? After the one million or so reasons she had to do so when he first pitched this to her?"

Additionally, just because it's part of Hickman's style of writing doesn't mean it'll make it any more effective in the long run (if he's even put any thought into it at all.) It feels disorganised to me. A little too convenient.

That's the issue with artists in any field, the things they do work for some people and not for others. I like long form stories with interconnected plot points and I don't mind not seeing everything right away. I've read Hickman's stories in the past and I've seen how he sets things up early on that don't play out until much much later, that's his style so I'm not worried that he's going to suddenly decide to write in an entirely different manner.

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

That's the issue with artists in any field, the things they do work for some people and not for others. I like long form stories with interconnected plot points and I don't mind not seeing everything right away. I've read Hickman's stories in the past and I've seen how he sets things up early on that don't play out until much much later, that's his style so I'm not worried that he's going to suddenly decide to write in an entirely different manner.

I'm not worried about if he'll write in a completely different manner; I'm worried that he won't care to address it at all. He seems to have just wanted to jump in and have everyone be perfectly OK with this; there's very little hint of narrative challenge from within the mutant ranks, save Logan, but even then Hickman himself isn't dealing with that solo. That'll be on Percy. The characters Hickman is in charge of are just 100% in agreement with very little context for why they should be. No one knows Moira's still alive, for one, plus even if Xavier beams all that he's seen from her past lives (which, in the broader context of how much alternate time-line, future, time-travel the MU as a whole has gone through is a very, very limited amount to have lived, but suspension of disbelief I admit) Jean especially should feel some red flags raised because, quite simply, this man has a history of manipulating people's memories and how they should feel. She's experienced it first-hand, in fact, as has Scott.

[Zelena]

Why was he a terrible person or why was a worse person? Or both?

Obviously interpreting a character like that is down to personal interpretation, so here's mine. I thought he was a bad person for lying to his friends and allies constantly, even mind controlling them when he felt the need too. Deadly Genesis alone was enough for me to never care about him again. What HoXPoX did was take Xavier's flaws and magnify them 100 fold. They made it so that from Day 1 of the X-men, he didn't believe a thing he was saying about coexistence. He and Moira always thought it was doomed, and strung everyone along to get them to this point. They allowed every terrible thing that happened to the X-men to happen, despite having at least some warnings courtesy of Moira.

I personally don't find him interesting, and felt he was better as a dead symbol than an actual character. He's a ludicrously privileged straight white guy with a power that let him coast through life. He's probably one of the worst types of character you could use to make you arguments about minority struggles.

I personally find him interesting because of that. Ok, Hickman Xavier: not interesting. But in his previous incarnations, he was shown as someone who cared. Any power can be cumbersome if you want to earn the trust of the people that are important to you. Wealth, telepathy, "human apparence"… all of that can lead you to make mistakes, missteps… and he made them. Making mistakes… a human trait.

[Kisinith]

Its kind of a Catch-22 situation with Moira. We got one page of a montage of major X moments, including the Phoenix 5, as a way of showing things in one of her lives was similar/identical. Her other lives diverged so quickly that they don't tell us much. Which leaves us with this: either circumstances in each of her lives was so different that they don't tell us anything concrete, and thus, the knowledge was almost worthless and shouldn't have been able to convince Xavier so easily; OR the circumstances were the same/close enough that Moira and Xavier knew what was going to happen before this point, and let it happen for their own reasons.

I disagree with this point completely, there is no reason to make the assumptions you do. The specific details of the lives you are trying to reference are irrelevant to the story which is why they aren't given. The central premise for the many lives of Moira X was that after a lifetime of following each specific ideology the sentinels were still developed and still wiped out the mutants. That individually the methods chosen by each of the major leaders of mutantkind all fail. Any lifetime that had relevant important information was explored in greater depth.

Trying to predict the future becomes impossible from the moment Moira starts interacting with people because she causes them to change.

[Lucyinthesky]

Its kind of a Catch-22 situation with Moira. We got one page of a montage of major X moments, including the Phoenix 5, as a way of showing things in one of her lives was similar/identical. Her other lives diverged so quickly that they don't tell us much. Which leaves us with this: either circumstances in each of her lives was so different that they don't tell us anything concrete, and thus, the knowledge was almost worthless and shouldn't have been able to convince Xavier so easily; OR the circumstances were the same/close enough that Moira and Xavier knew what was going to happen before this point, and let it happen for their own reasons.

I think it`s a mix of both, there are events that repeat themselves, like the creation of the sentinels by the traks or other people, and there are events that were the result of Moira`s intervention , like her alliances with Charles, Magneto and Apocalypse.

They brought the elements neccesary to bring Krakoa to life because they thought that was the best bet mutants had but by Moira`s own writtings it wasn`t an easy thing to make, Xavier didn`t want to change his beliefs of coexistence, Magneto break their alliance and died during mutant genesis and only came back after Genosha and Utopia were destroyed, Moira had to do her investigations on her own to create the concept of "the five" and the drugs that heal body and mind, etc. It wasn`t an easy road and they didn`t have that much control over the events even if they wanted to imo.

[spirit2011]

"Stories yet to be told" is a stupid cop out by someone who shouldn't have the job they do.

For another one:
Despite what others have claimed and will no doubt come snarl about, I don't think what was done with 'The Five' will do anything but harm those characters. It may have made them 'important' in universe but mostly seems to have made them non-characters. Just plot devices that are only going to get killed off or otherwise taken off the board by some 'OMG look how evil and powerful they are!!!' big bad Hickman probably has stored up his sleeve.

Tell the stories then. "stories yet to be told" is very frustrating.

I saw comments how Hickman saved these characters, but we only saw then as plot devices.

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

Tell the stories then. "stories yet to be told" is very frustrating.

I saw comments how Hickman saved these characters, but we only saw then as plot devices.

Not even plot-devices; more like mouth-pieces!