Your Unpopular/Controversial Opinions on the X-Universe

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

I think a fascinating philosophical school would be one in which Mutants treated Humans as "proto-Mutants" - not lesser in a superiority sense but more as "not finished." Guiding humans to try and breed Mutants would be one obvious goal of this school but also having humans adopt certain types of thought or religion to "prepare" them for their future becoming.

It could be simultaneously hopeful, creepy as hell, and very, very weird.

That'd be a really interesting and relevant plot-point though, all things considered. I wouldn't say no to it! I mean, why not right? Human-Bill in this weeks X-Force said it himself; mutants are the 1% now.

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

These are academic models, applied to societal groups, that doesn't necessarily apply to individuals. One map doesn't necessarily help navigate the different territory.

For personal, individual growth, much of it has to do with perspectivism and how that translates into action. In the same way in my Gnostic example a human, by virtue of being alive as a physical body, will never truly 'transcend' the prison of matter. But, if their psychology and the actions that derive from that psychology effectively attain the goal of internal liberation, then yeah... they kinda have.

And if mutants truly ARE a separate species then perhaps there would be mutant philosophical or even religious schools that would treat the pre-mutant power "Human" years (and their families, etc.) as a type of chrysalis that they develop from until all mutants are just mutants that are born of mutant parents.

Cool stuff to contemplate, no?

Ah but see, it's not impossible for there to be a human born from two mutant parents; who's to say there still won't be throw-backs even generations down the line? We as humans still see it; ridges in skulls, remnants of prehensile tails, webbed fingers and toes. Even the appendix is still part of us even though, in terms of evolution, it offers what appears to be nothing except to randomly poison us whenever it feels like.

So I suppose the argument "Humans are still apes!" could just as easily evolve into "Mutants are still humans!"

[Astroman]

Ah but see, it's not impossible for there to be a human born from two mutant parents; who's to say there still won't be throw-backs even generations down the line? We as humans still see it; ridges in skulls, remnants of prehensile tails, webbed fingers and toes. Even the appendix is still part of us even though, in terms of evolution, it offers what appears to be nothing except to randomly poison us whenever it feels like.

So I suppose the argument "Humans are still apes!" could just as easily evolve into "Mutants are still humans!"

Sure, and they might be treated as if they have a deficiency or disorder of some type. Or, they could be considered "developmentally challenged" just on a generational scale. Kinda that "proto-Mutant" sort of thing.

Regarding "apes," technically both Humans and Mutants are apes as they would be considered both part of the Hominidae family of primates... but again this is where real world arguments start to really fall apart as the whole concept of "Mutants" per Marvel really doesn't work when you look at it too closely.

[Zelena]

Ah but see, it's not impossible for there to be a human born from two mutant parents; who's to say there still won't be throw-backs even generations down the line? We as humans still see it; ridges in skulls, remnants of prehensile tails, webbed fingers and toes. Even the appendix is still part of us even though, in terms of evolution, it offers what appears to be nothing except to randomly poison us whenever it feels like.

So I suppose the argument "Humans are still apes!" could just as easily evolve into "Mutants are still humans!"

You cannot mistake a human for a ape. A 'human' and a mutant… Just a gene. With spectacular manifestions but still…

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

Sure, and they might be treated as if they have a deficiency or disorder of some type. Or, they could be considered "developmentally challenged" just on a generational scale. Kinda that "proto-Mutant" sort of thing.

Regarding "apes," technically both Humans and Mutants are apes as they would be considered both part of the Hominidae family of primates... but again this is where real world arguments start to really fall apart as the whole concept of "Mutants" per Marvel really doesn't work when you look at it too closely.

Oh that'd be uncomfortable to see. Like really, really uncomfortable. Suddenly the idea of just being 'human' relegates someone to being 'disabled' or 'inferior'...oh that's horrible...that's dystopia fiction right there....gotta say, I'd have a rough time rooting for anyone who'd think or treat others as such, especially if they get all patronisingly nice? Like "Hey, good job! See, you can still do stuff!" (I'm autistic, I've had that just so many times...just...)

Not really though? Like, Mutants are just what happens when genes start to fantastically mutate; even the least human-looking one's can probably make an argument for convergent evolution? In that, they've taken on attributes of other species that they aren't actually part of, like in the case of foxes and dogs, for example? And even then, that doesn't prevent them breeding with humans and producing viable and fertile offspring? Doesn't that in itself prevent them from being ever truly separate species?

[Astroman]

Orangutans might be a good analogy, in that, Pongo pygmaeus, Pongo tapanuliensis, and Pongo abelii are all considered separate species but they all developed from a common species and can still interbreed creating hybrids.

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

Orangutans might be a good analogy, in that, Pongo pygmaeus, Pongo tapanuliensis, and Pongo abelii are all considered separate species but they all developed from a common species and can still interbreed creating hybrids.

Hm, interesting, didn't know that! But see, even if they are a separate species (or considered as such by us, the outsiders, let's be honest) it still means they're never truly separated on an evolutionary level?

[Vegan Daddy]

He surely had 'human' lovers and didn't speak to them much about 'mutant superiority'…

He did to Lee Forrester and Briar Raleigh

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

He did to Lee Forrester and Briar Raleigh

Don't forget Magda and Isabelle! They were very much human!

[Zelena]

He did to Lee Forrester and Briar Raleigh

Who talked back to him.

[Astroman]

Oh that'd be uncomfortable to see. Like really, really uncomfortable. Suddenly the idea of just being 'human' relegates someone to being 'disabled' or 'inferior'...oh that's horrible...that's dystopia fiction right there....gotta say, I'd have a rough time rooting for anyone who'd think or treat others as such, especially if they get all patronisingly nice? Like "Hey, good job! See, you can still do stuff!" (I'm autistic, I've had that just so many times...just...)

It would have elements of dystopia in it... just like real life. I don't personally have a problem with uncomfortable elements being in my funny books but, I understand, others don't want that in their fiction. I think it would make for interesting things to wrestle with in the safe realm of fiction.

Not really though? Like, Mutants are just what happens when genes start to fantastically mutate; even the least human-looking one's can probably make an argument for convergent evolution? In that, they've taken on attributes of other species that they aren't actually part of, like in the case of foxes and dogs, for example? And even then, that doesn't prevent them breeding with humans and producing viable and fertile offspring? Doesn't that in itself prevent them from being ever truly separate species?

The big problem with Marvel is that they conflate mutation (which should be technically applied to individual) and evolution (which happens in populations). I'm fine if they want to use the term loosely for fun in our comic books, but spontaneous mutation in a living organism (which an eruption of powers at puberty would be the fictional analogue to) in real life leads to things like cancer... not super powers... and the generations since the first atomic testing has demonstrated that mutagens like that won't make us evolve... they'll just kill us.

[Astroman]

Hm, interesting, didn't know that! But see, even if they are a separate species (or considered as such by us, the outsiders, let's be honest) it still means they're never truly separated on an evolutionary level?

Which biologists would agree with. We're also still mammals and ultimately go back to the protozoa of life. None of that matters in the world of sentient politics and culture where we kill other mammals for food, have different legal statuses for various species, etc.

And that's only from a Positive Materialist POV. When you bring into the equation things like Souls, magic, afterlives, etc. (all of which exist in 616) then there might be essential differences that are pertinent.

What if the nature of a Mutant "soul" is actually demonstrably different than a Human "soul"? These sorts of explorations (if they do follow up on the whole Mutant Magic thing) would be even more interesting.

[Vegan Daddy]

I will admit that it’s hilarious to compare the confident, smug, know-it-all Magneto in Hox/Pox to the failed, broken Magneto who chose to kill a mutant girl over himself.

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

It would have elements of dystopia in it... just like real life. I don't personally have a problem with uncomfortable elements being in my funny books but, I understand, others don't want that in their fiction. I think it would make for interesting things to wrestle with in the safe realm of fiction.

No, not so much that; I actually love reading about those things. It's just...which characters fall on what end of those arguments or considerations?

Like, take Storm; from what I've seen of her under Hickman, I can easily see her falling into the camp that mandates humans be treated as...well..."Special children" at best, but quick to snap at them if they put a foot out of line. "They can't help being human," She might say...but she doesn't seem to think much of humanity right now. Scott too might only be slightly more compassionate.

Logan would happily tell them to **** off though, I can see that.

But ya know? What kind of experience would the writers actually treat that as? Nuanced, or...? Just fact...?

The big problem with Marvel is that they use mutation (which should be technically applied to individual) and evolution (which happens in populations). I'm fine if they want to use the term loosely for fun in our comic books, but spontaneous mutation in a living organism (like an eruption of powers at puberty) in real life leads to things like cancer... not super powers... and the generations since the first atomic testing has demonstrated that mutagens like that won't make us evolve... they'll just kill us.

Well, I can kind of counter that. Recent studies suggest that autism is also a genetic factor, possibly a mutation; it comes with its' own detriments but, if given proper support and understanding, individuals really can keep up alongside and even surpass, at times, their Neuro-typical peers. I understand what you mean, but like, still?

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

I will admit that it’s hilarious to compare the confident, smug, know-it-all Magneto in Hox/Pox to the failed, broken Magneto who chose to kill a mutant girl over himself.

That's Magneto?? No way; that looks like Charles with stubble! Who was the artist on that?