Your Unpopular/Controversial Opinions on the X-Universe

[KC]

Bringing forward the 05 wasn't itself a bad idea, and for a while it was actually pretty good. Both All New and Uncanny under Bendis (If you could deal with Bendis-isms) were solidly entertaining titles for a while. The problem is, that kind of story needs a full, well-defined arc with a planned end. It fails if it gets left open ended, which is what happened then the longer it goes on the stupider it got.

I agree that a better plan was needed for the story. It started off well but as it went on the original purpose for bringing back the O5 started to get lost and they ended up becoming something that Marvel wasn't sure what to do with.

[Ambaryerno]

But that is just a stupid premise for a long form series- teenage superheroes look at how things a few years later. OK, great. So what? They have to go back to the past eventually and forget all about it, and every single minute they are around they risk BILLIONS of lives.

Another issue is that Bendis had to make it seem like the 05 actually came out of the 60's to make the contrast work, because, due to the sliding timescale, things didn't change that much- sure you would have a lot of shock if you came from 2007-2008 to the present, but it's not like you're coming out of 1945 or the middle-ages- you know about the Internet, social media, the wars of Afghanistan and Iraq, reality shows, the presence of cell phones in our every day lives, TV, you already know who most of the major political figures are around the world (even if the Orange Menace becoming president would have a big shock), etc.

Yeah, the Sliding Time Scale and how ridiculously young Marvel keeps insisting the O5 are really stretched the suspension of disbelief. For the O5 being brought forward to have REAL impact and meaning it would have to be done in a setting where the passage of time actually matters a damn. The time frame between the present and past was simply FAR too small to realistically make a difference.

[KC]

Yeah, the Sliding Time Scale and how ridiculously young Marvel keeps insisting the O5 are really stretched the suspension of disbelief. For the O5 being brought forward to have REAL impact and meaning it would have to be done in a setting where the passage of time actually matters a damn. The time frame between the present and past was simply FAR too small to realistically make a difference.

It did have a REAL impact and meaning because, despite the shrunken time frame, A lot had happened to the X-Men in the time between the O5's era and the time they were brought too. So much that they were justifiably shocked by how much had happened in that space of time when they were brought forward in time.

[davetvs]

It did have a REAL impact and meaning because, despite the shrunken time frame, A lot had happened to the X-Men in the time between the O5's era and the time they were brought too. So much that they were justifiably shocked by how much had happened in that space of time when they were brought forward in time.

Agreed. Sliding timescale or not, 30+ real world years worth of stories had happened to those characters by the time they came back. I'm in the group that didn't hate it at first (even though it made Beast pretty irredeemably, dangerously insufferable as a character) but that they let it go on so much longer than it should've really soured it. I did like the Teen Jean solo.

[Omega Alpha]

There is nothing wrong with looking backwards. Especially if it is used to look forward and question where characters are when compared to who they were and what they will be.

You can't build an entire book, hell, an entire franchise, based on some characters reacting to earlier, better stories, and the other characters around them reacting to the reaction to those early, better stories. Specially considering the characters that will react to it then will go back in time and disappear from the books in that particular form. And other than Iceman being outed, which didn't need his younger self going forward in time, what did it achieve?

I'll ask again: can anyone imagine peak Claremont, Morrison or Hickman doing something likes this? Hell, even someone like Carey or Gillen? There's a reason for that.

[KC]

You can't build an entire book, hell, an entire franchise, based on some characters reacting to earlier, better stories, and the other characters around them reacting to the reaction to those early, better stories. Specially considering the characters that will react to it then will go back in time and disappear from the books in that particular form. And other than Iceman being outed, which didn't need his younger self going forward in time, what did it achieve?

I'll ask again: can anyone imagine peak Claremont, Morrison or Hickman doing something likes this? Hell, even someone like Carey or Gillen? There's a reason for that.

I mean, yes, you can. The book was an introspective look on what these characters had been through and where they were at that moment which was especially relevant after Avengers vs X-Men and with Cyclops on the path of being the new Magento. The O5 would go back in time and forget but it was still interesting to see their reaction to what the X-Men would become in the future and it also affected the X-Men in the present too which would not be immediately forgotten.

Any of those writers could have easily done it if they thought about it. It was a bit of an out of the box idea and it was a good idea at the time considering just how much change the X-Men hed been though to that point.

[Omega Alpha]

I mean, yes, you can. The book was an introspective look on what these characters had been through and where they were at that moment which was especially relevant after Avengers vs X-Men and with Cyclops on the path of being the new Magento. The O5 would go back in time and forget but it was still interesting to see their reaction to what the X-Men would become in the future and it also affected the X-Men in the present too which would not be immediately forgotten.

Any of those writers could have easily done it if they thought about it. It was a bit of an out of the box idea and it was a good idea at the time considering just how much change the X-Men hed been though to that point.

None of these writers would have done it because any good writer knows you have to make the characters move forward, not back (Hickman criticized the idea already), and building your entire franchise around reacting to other, better stories is stupid because:

a) First of all, it reminds me the readers they could be reading other, better stories than the one they are currently reading;
b) Assumes readers read all these past stories, which is never a given;
c) Assumes readers care about all these past stories as much as you or the characters do;
d) Assumes readers care about what would the teenage X-men of the past thought, which is not a given either;
e) Makes all the characters involved look stupid and selfish, because they are risking billions of lives every second they stay in the present;
f) In the end, it changes nothing, because the main characters will just forget what happened, and the other ones will only be tangentially affected.

Moreover, Bendis said the idea wasn't his, but rather one that was floating around Marvel for many years and everyone else hated it...except for Jeph Loeb (if Loeb liking isn't an endorsement of poor quality, I don't know what is, LOL!), so most of other writers I mentioned already knew about it, they wisely just thought it was a bad idea.

[KC]

None of these writers would have done it because any good writer knows you have to make the characters move forward, not back (Hickman criticized the idea already), and building your entire franchise around reacting to other, better stories is stupid because:

a) First of all, it reminds me the readers they could be reading other, better stories than the one they are currently reading;
b) Assumes readers read all these past stories, which is never a given;
c) Assumes readers care about all these past stories as much as you or the characters do;
d) Assumes readers care about what would the teenage X-men of the past thought, which is not a given either;
e) Makes all the characters involved look stupid and selfish, because they are risking billions of lives every second they stay in the present;
f) In the end, it changes nothing, because the main characters will just forget what happened, and the other ones will only be tangentially affected.

Moreover, Bendis said the idea wasn't his, but rather one that was floating around Marvel for many years and everyone else hated it...except for Jeph Loeb (if Loeb liking isn't an endorsement of poor quality, I don't know what is, LOL!), so most of other writers I mentioned already knew about it, they wisely just thought it was a bad idea.

Again, sometimes you have to look back to go forward and that is what the book was trying to do by showing where the X-Men were at the start and just how far they have gone for good and bad and how they will move forward from that.

The series honestly was written well and it did enough new things to warrant the readers sticking around. Most comics are continuity heavy and referential at this point so your points B and C could apply to most comics. Bendis had to and did write it in a way that wasn't so continuity heavy at all times to readers could understand.

Readers caring about the characters and what they think is always a problem in fiction. In my opinion, Bendis does a good enough job at this to make readers care.

A lot of the characters were more than just "Tangentially affected" by it, especially at the start. And even though the past X-men forgot it was still fun to see what they thought of the X-Men in the future.

It was a fun idea that produced a few good books.

[baxer]

Again, sometimes you have to look back to go forward and that is what the book was trying to do by showing where the X-Men were at the start and just how far they have gone for good and bad and how they will move forward from that.

The series honestly was written well and it did enough new things to warrant the readers sticking around. Most comics are continuity heavy and referential at this point so your points B and C could apply to most comics. Bendis had to and did write it in a way that wasn't so continuity heavy at all times to readers could understand.

Readers caring about the characters and what they think is always a problem in fiction. In my opinion, Bendis does a good enough job at this to make readers care.

A lot of the characters were more than just "Tangentially affected" by it, especially at the start. And even though the past X-men forgot it was still fun to see what they thought of the X-Men in the future.

It was a fun idea that produced a few good books.

I think it was a good idea on the start, but then Bendis should had just finished it. It sold very well
Anyway the teen O5 was really good since Marvel wanted treading water and filler stories on x-men

[Omega Alpha]

[QUOTE=baxer;5232138
Anyway the teen O5 was really good since Marvel wanted treading water and filler stories on x-men[/QUOTE]

And that's the real issue. It was all about treading water and filler stories.

[Agent Z]

X-men fans are way too quiet about Sinister stealing Thunderbird's DNA.

[KC]

I think it was a good idea on the start, but then Bendis should had just finished it. It sold very well
Anyway the teen O5 was really good since Marvel wanted treading water and filler stories on x-men

I don't think it was a treading water or filler era. I think Marvel was backing Bendis to create a new status quo for the X-Men universe.

[Ambaryerno]

It did have a REAL impact and meaning because, despite the shrunken time frame, A lot had happened to the X-Men in the time between the O5's era and the time they were brought too. So much that they were justifiably shocked by how much had happened in that space of time when they were brought forward in time.

Sorry. Nope. I don't see it. That just makes the entire conceit WORSE.

[KC]

Sorry. Nope. I don't see it. That just makes the entire conceit WORSE.

I mean, no, it doesn't make it worse. The impact and meaning comes from how much the X-Men changed up to that point.

[Killerbee911]

Storm, Cyclops, Jean and Wolverine are the Core Four of the X-men. There is something so right about seeing any combination of them plus 1-3 more characters. They form the most recognizable backbone of the team

I mostly agree with you except for Jean Grey, who stays dead too long for me consider her core. I think is more like

Core 1.Wolverine, Storm, Cyclops
Core 2. Jean, Beast,Kitty, Magneto, Nightcrawler, Rogue, Iceman,Xavier
really close Bishop, Asian Betsy, Angel, Gambit, Colossus, Cable **Magik

They are 3 X-men who are clearly slightly important than rest but isn't important enough because of nature of the franchise to need have all three of them around. It is really hard to do a team that feels offical without someone from Core 1 but if you stick enough people from Core 2 and the "really close group" you can get away it for a little while but the big X-men formula that works normally at least 1 out of 3 of Core 1 and depending how much you use from Core 1,determines how much you use from the next group.

And my controversial opinion is that Magik is now A-list X-man, She does the berserker loose canon Wolverine thing very well and writers have recognized that and have been using her to the fullest.