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  1. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    How does she not?
    Is she not supposed to or does she not?

    Logan under Claremont really is that Clint Eastwood type of macho man, but with depth wrought from a long history of suffering and an attempt to stifle that animalistic rage with a more zen, detached master sort of thing.

    Sure, X23 can vacillate between complete savagery and trying to be better, but that goes for any and all characters in this medium. Especially at the movie level, there is no way the audience will respond to her the same way they responded to him.

    She is derivative, literally, while not occupying that same niche. I really don't understand her appeal or the notion that she is a good idea to replace him.
    Let the flames destroy all but that which is pure and true!

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by yogaflame View Post
    Is she not supposed to or does she not?

    Logan under Claremont really is that Clint Eastwood type of macho man, but with depth wrought from a long history of suffering and an attempt to stifle that animalistic rage with a more zen, detached master sort of thing.

    Sure, X23 can vacillate between complete savagery and trying to be better, but that goes for any and all characters in this medium. Especially at the movie level, there is no way the audience will respond to her the same way they responded to him.

    She is derivative, literally, while not occupying that same niche. I really don't understand her appeal or the notion that she is a good idea to replace him.
    I thinkt he fact we rarely see a female character in a role like this might be well received. Just as how Jessica Jones was basically a noir private detective except a woman and it was considered good as you don't see female characters occupy that role very often.

    Yes Laura has differences from Logan as well as similarities and that's why she has fans. Plus Logan has been less and less about stifling his animalistic rage over the years.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 06-25-2016 at 02:44 PM.

  3. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I thinkt he fact we rarely see a female character in a role like this might be well received. Just as how Jessica Jones was basically a noir private detective except a woman and it was considered good as you don't see female characters occupy that role very often.

    Yes Laura has differences from Logan as well as similarities and that's why she has fans. Plus Logan has been less and less about stifling his animalistic rage over the years.
    As I stated before, if you ask me the whole line should have folded around Decimation, so there's plenty of bad writing to go around, Logan definitely included. She just doesn't serve as a proper 'replacement' for his spot, it what I am saying.
    Let the flames destroy all but that which is pure and true!

  4. #49
    Ultimate Member Ambaryerno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yogaflame View Post
    She doesn't embody the same archetypes that Logan did, and never can.
    Well yeah. She's her own character on a different journey. She's not GOING to embody the same archetypes that Logan did.

    Honestly, this is precisely why comics fans are impossible to please.

    On one hand, they complain about Legacy Characters losing their own identities when they take on a famous mantle (whether it's Dick as Batman, Laura as Wolverine, whatever). Then they turn around and complain when the Legacy Character tries to make the mantle their own rather than be who their predecessor made them.
    Last edited by Ambaryerno; 06-25-2016 at 03:01 PM.
    Still hoping for that Helix Reunion...

    The New X-Men: Can't let you grow up because you make everyone look old. But we can sure as @#$% mindlessly kill you off for shock value!


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  5. #50
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    I think wanting Laura to be more like Logan is one of the most stupid things. She's a damn clone, she already have his powers, his DNA, his background and now his costume and his codename too. That's like MORE than enough. Make her more like Logan and it's just him on a female body.

  6. #51
    Incredible Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    I liked Joseph, even as a clone he deserved much better than what he got, Maggot and Sarah (Marrow) as X-men they just needed a better time and space to interact.

    I believe Morrison has great talent as a writer but he was a bad X-men writer.

    I actually still like Old Hank as a character but hate the way writers use him to force drama inside the X-men when it could be done better by developing the characters that have reasons do dislike or not agree with the way things are being done.

    Teen Jean is a character that I love to hate and I believe she has the potential to develop in a different way than Jean if she is allowed the chance to show those differences in her characterization.
    "The time for subtlety is passing. Now is the time for change." [New Mutants (Vol. 1) #38]

  7. #52
    Uncanny Member JustAnotherFan's Avatar
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    Don't we already have a thread for this stuff? I'm pretty sure I have responded to a thread about unpopular/controversial opinions when it comes to X-Men.

    Well, whatever, here are some of my (not so?) unpopular/controversial opinions:

    Comics:

    -Claremont (while he is a legend) should NEVER return to write another X-Men comic. He just doesn't have the talent he once did and his writing style has become a bit too dated

    -Morrison's run on the x-books was terrible, unoriginal and one of the worst runs ever and it is partially responsible for the mess that the X-Men comics have become today as some of its negative effects are still present today

    -Chuck Austen's X-Men run is really funny and entertaining to read because it's so badly written

    -Bendis' X-Men run was possibly the worst (and most boring) run on x-books EVER

    -X-Men should not be teachers and mentors to teenage mutants. Marvel should completely discard the school aspect from the main x-books and allow X-Men to be heroes again (and I'm saying this as a fan of NXM kids)

    -X-Men need a complete overhaul and maybe even a reboot of some kind in order to be salvaged

    -Marvel needs to give most main X-Men characters (Storm, Wolverine, Cyclops, etc.) a rest and replace them with B- and C-list characters for a while. There is sort of a precedent for this in the x-books (O5 being replaced by ANAD team, then Outback team, etc.) and it should be done more often in order to breathe new life into the X-Men as a whole. A-listers can act as supporting characters for the B- and C-list characters

    -NXM kids should stay as students forever and serve as only supporting and background characters at best, only getting minor focus issues every now and then without ever growing up because there are already more than enough old student characters who have grown up and gone to comic book limbo after that (Again, I'm a fan of these characters but the current editorial does have a good point about former students being forgotten once they are allowed to graduate)

    Movies:

    -FoX-Men movies are mostly terrible and a poor representation of the X-Men franchise failing to live up to the precedent set by various other incarnations of the X-Men

    -X2 hasn't aged well and it's way too overrated

    -X-Men the Last Stand wasn't nearly as bad as people make it out to be even if it wasn't a good film by any means

    -Deadpool is by far the best (and only real) X-Men film to date (because FoX-Men don't count)

    -We probably won't see a good and faithful X-Men film until Marvel gets involved in the process of making those films (whether by getting the rights completely or by cutting a deal with Fox)

    -FoX-Men films aren't really all that deep as the only "deep" things about them are something that is mostly inherent to the X-Men franchise (mutants as a metaphor for minorities, Magneto's WWII backstory) and would be present even if Marvel was the one making the films

    -Bryan Singer is a hindrance to the FoX-Men at this point and one of the things they need to do in order to get better is to get rid of him

    -JLaw is a terrible Mystique and she should be taken off the movies permanently from now on

    Cartoons:

    -X-Men Evolution was a good cartoon after it got past the 1st season and it did well what FoX-Men movies have failed miserably in: It adapted X-Men into a new and different setting and changed a lot of things but still managed to stay true to the most important elements in the X-Men and it could have been even better if it had been allowed to continue

    -X-Men TAS hasn't aged all that well and it isn't as good or mature as everyone remembers it to be even thought it is still one of the better saturday morning action cartoons and superhero cartoons
    Last edited by JustAnotherFan; 06-25-2016 at 03:52 PM.

  8. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ambaryerno View Post
    Well yeah. She's her own character on a different journey. She's not GOING to embody the same archetypes that Logan did.

    Honestly, this is precisely why comics fans are impossible to please.

    On one hand, they complain about Legacy Characters losing their own identities when they take on a famous mantle (whether it's Dick as Batman, Laura as Wolverine, whatever). Then they turn around and complain when the Legacy Character tries to make the mantle their own rather than be who their predecessor made them.
    I don't like legacy characters, so don't try to lump me into whatever idea you already have formed.
    Let the flames destroy all but that which is pure and true!

  9. #54
    Fantastic Member LocoSteve's Avatar
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    Days of Future Past ( the comic) does not hold up well

  10. #55
    Astonishing Member AbnormallyNormal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustAnotherFan View Post
    -X-Men need a complete overhaul and maybe even a reboot of some kind in order to be salvaged

    -Marvel needs to give most main X-Men characters (Storm, Wolverine, Cyclops, etc.) a rest and replace them with B- and C-list characters for a while. There is sort of a precedent for this in the x-books (O5 being replaced by ANAD team, then Outback team, etc.) and it should be done more often in order to breath new life into the X-Men as a whole. A-listers can act as supporting characters for the B- and C-list characters

    -NXM kids should stay as students forever and serve as only supporting and background characters at best, only getting minor focus issues every now and then without ever growing up because there are already more than enough old student characters who have grown up and gone to comic book limbo after that (Again, I'm a fan of these characters but the current editorial does have a good point about former students being forgotten once they are allowed to graduate)
    Arent your 2nd and 3rd points here in total conflict?

    As to your 1st point that sounds scary to me I dont like total destruction, can be be positive about how you think things ought to turn into?
    Chris Claremont, Peter David, Mike Carey, Cullen Bunn = canon. Others = fanfic.

  11. #56
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustAnotherFan View Post
    -X-Men should not be teachers and mentors to teenage mutants. Marvel should completely discard the school aspect from the main x-books and allow X-Men to be heroes again (and I'm saying this as a fan of NXM kids)

    -Marvel needs to give most main X-Men characters (Storm, Wolverine, Cyclops, etc.) a rest and replace them with B- and C-list characters for a while. There is sort of a precedent for this in the x-books (O5 being replaced by ANAD team, then Outback team, etc.) and it should be done more often in order to breathe new life into the X-Men as a whole. A-listers can act as supporting characters for the B- and C-list characters

    -NXM kids should stay as students forever and serve as only supporting and background characters at best, only getting minor focus issues every now and then without ever growing up because there are already more than enough old student characters who have grown up and gone to comic book limbo after that (Again, I'm a fan of these characters but the current editorial does have a good point about former students being forgotten once they are allowed to graduate)
    You know that, together, that doesn't make any sense, right? You hate the school thing, but you want NXM to be students on the school forever, instead of grow to be main X-Men, what would be the only way for them to still show up if the school concept was busted, but even when you think the main X-Men should have some rest and give a chance B-List characters, you think the B-List characters should remain like that, being used in one of the aspects of the X-Books you hate. LOOOOOL. That could make sense if you hate the NXM and doesn't even want them to exist anymore, but you say you're a fan...

  12. #57
    Uncanny Member JustAnotherFan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbnormallyNormal View Post
    Arent your 2nd and 3rd points here in total conflict?

    As to your 1st point that sounds scary to me I dont like total destruction, can be be positive about how you think things ought to turn into?
    Well, those point are more like that if I had my way the NXM kids should be jettisoned from the main x-books completely and the X-Men as teachers aspect would be dropped finally.

    But it's not going to happen any time soon (if ever) so the other possibility would be to leave the teacher aspect in the background so that it's not taking time away from X-Men being heroes. So the student body would be a more of a faceless mass and a story element in the background and writers would only sometimes bring some of the NXM kids into the spotlight as junior X-Men but nothing more. Kind of like the student body is in the movie. They are there but outside of couple students (Iceman, Pyro, Rogue) we never really see their faces or learn their names so they remain mostly non-characters in the background. That's how I'd like to see the current students be used in the X-Men comics if they can't be completely written off.

    And as for my first point, well, we're at a point where it's less and less believable that Marvel can right the ship with the X-Men without a complete overhaul. I mean, half the X-Men are dead or in limbo and the other half have been totally destroyed by years of bad writing and have been moved off the x-books. In some cases more than one of these apply to the same character (Wolverine is dead but even before that his character was destroyed by bad writing).

    At this point I think it would be best for the X-Men to be semi-rebooted into their own universe.

  13. #58
    Incredible Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustAnotherFan
    Fox movies:

    -FoX-Men movies are mostly terrible and a poor representation of the X-Men franchise failing to live up to the precedent set by various other incarnations of the X-Men

    -X2 hasn't aged well and it's way too overrated

    -X-Men the Last Stand wasn't nearly as bad as people make it out to be even if it wasn't a good film by any means

    -Deadpool is by far the best (and only real) X-Men film to date (because FoX-Men don't count)

    -We probably won't see a good and faithful X-Men film until Marvel gets involved in the process of making those films (whether by getting the rights completely or by cutting a deal with Fox)

    -FoX-Men films aren't really all that deep as the only "deep" things about them are something that is mostly inherent to the X-Men franchise (mutants as a metaphor for minorities, Magneto's WWII backstory) and would be present even if Marvel was the one making the films

    -Bryan Singer is a hindrance to the FoX-Men at this point and one of the things they need to do in order to get better is to get rid of him
    I agree with this except in that I am not sure marvel could do a lot better, when it comes to X-men and Avengers they tend to support the second to the detriment to the first imo.
    Last edited by Lucyinthesky; 06-25-2016 at 04:10 PM.
    "The time for subtlety is passing. Now is the time for change." [New Mutants (Vol. 1) #38]

  14. #59
    Uncanny Member JustAnotherFan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    You know that, together, that doesn't make any sense, right? You hate the school thing, but you want NXM to be students on the school forever, instead of grow to be main X-Men, what would be the only way for them to still show up if the school concept was busted, but even when you think the main X-Men should have some rest and give a chance B-List characters, you think the B-List characters should remain like that, being used in one of the aspects of the X-Books you hate. LOOOOOL. That could make sense if you hate the NXM and doesn't even want them to exist anymore, but you say you're a fan...
    Read my other post where I explain the whole thing better. I noticed that the original post might seem contradictory but I couldn't care to change it since it was getting so long anyway and I expected people to have enough brains to figure it out. But guess I shouldn't count on people on these boards to have enough brain cells to figure out that it was either this or that scenario. But I guess I shouldn't expect more from someone whose favorite is an Avengers character and the spawn of Scarlet Witch. LOL
    Last edited by JustAnotherFan; 06-25-2016 at 04:14 PM.

  15. #60
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustAnotherFan View Post
    Read my other post where I explain the whole thing better. I noticed that the original post might seem contradictory but I couldn't care to change it since it was getting so long anyway and I expected people to have enough brains to figure it out. But guess I shouldn't count on people on these boards to have enough brain cells to figure out that it was either this or that scenario. But I guess I shouldn't expect more from someone whose favorite is an Avengers character and the spawn of Scarlet Witch. LOL
    Well, than you lied when you said you were a fan of NXM, and I was right to think you actually wanted them to be completely out. I'm not the only one who thought it was contradictory so maybe you shouldn't count on yourself when trying to make a point. And my favorite character of all time is actually Jean Grey. Billy and Carol come right after but the reason I use him instead of them as a nickname and stuff is because he's the one I identify the most.

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