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  1. #6646
    Astonishing Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    Ummm...no...

    A foreign national who breaks the law in the US is subject to US law and jurisdiction....they are not sent back to their home country to be tried by their home government. Just a a US citizen abroad is subject to the laws of the country they are visiting.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_principle
    Its corollary bars states from exercising jurisdiction within the territory of other states without their express consent, unless such an exercise can be based on other principles of jurisdiction, such as the principle of nationality, the passive personality principle, the protective principle, and possibly, the principle of universal jurisdiction.[2]
    Nationality Principle_An international tenet which recognized the right of countries to exercise sovereign jurisdiction over a national even if the national violates sovereign laws in another country.
    Unless thereīs a previous agreetmen between the US and the country from which that person is from or the nationality principle, in that case they must come to an agreetment on the place that person will be judged and by whose laws.

    Emma cited the dyplomatic agreetment the US has with Krakoa as the reason behind her being able to bring Sabretooth to Krakoa and be judged there.

    So in the situation of serious crimes being committed by a mutant...and the country in which the crimes are committed are refusing to give the criminal up to Krakoa...what is Krakoa going to do? Send the X-Men to break them out of prison? Have Magic or Pixie or Vanisher teleport them away?

    Or are they going to look at the seriousness of the crimes and just make sure he has a lawyer and wash their hands of it.
    This would be a dyplomatic incident, if the mutant is from Krakoa, in which case they must see if they have a previous agreetment with the country in question or yes help in giving them a lawyer for their judgment. I donīt really see the X-men breaking them out, especially if the person in question is guilty and they only want them to get to Krakoa to be judged there.

    And I am not saying that Krakoa is the most evil place on Earth...I just want more complexity to the story.
    Me too but I donīt think those kind of hypotethical situations suggested by you are conducive to a complex story, rather it seemed like you wanted to paint the entire place as a diplomatic get out of jail for all mutants or as if the X-men succedenly donīt know anything about ethics, law or common sense, when the comics have already adressed this is not the case at all. If you want complexity then lest see all the implications for every case.
    Last edited by Lucyinthesky; 02-27-2021 at 05:12 AM.
    "The time for subtlety is passing. Now is the time for change." [New Mutants (Vol. 1) #38]

  2. #6647
    Mighty Member Kingdom X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    Make More Mutants
    Murder No Man
    Respect This Sacred Land

    If a mutant is using (abusing?) the Krakoan Gates to mule drugs...is he breaking any of the rules?

    Or a serial rapist....who is purposely trying to impregnate his victims...does he claim he is obeying the law to make more mutants so Krakoa is going to help him avoid being punished?

    Diplomatic Immunity does not apply to everyone...and if Krakoa tried to protect them they will look bad on the world stage.

    This goes beyond the simplistic "all mutants are persecuted and need protection...mmmkay..." plot line. It puts real ethical decisions in the hands of the Krakoan government.
    It’s the desire to randomly throw rape into the conversation for me...

    We KNOW that either the QC or a former X-Man would address the problem. The introduction of Hellions showed that the QC is ready to respond to mutants that are a danger to themselves, other mutants, and humans. In New Mutants, Magik got so mad at other mutants bullying and damaging property that she felt the need to handle it, despite there not being an explicit law about it.

    Also if you apply serious legal theory to this then of course it isn’t going to make sense. Superhero comics by NATURE don’t fit with real world laws.
    Last edited by Kingdom X; 02-27-2021 at 11:11 AM.

  3. #6648
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    It’s the desire to randomly throw rape into the conversation for me...

    We KNOW that either the QC or a former X-Man would address the problem. The introduction of Hellions showed that the QC is ready to respond to mutants that are a danger to themselves, other mutants, and humans. In New Mutants, Magik got so mad at other mutants bullying that she felt the need to handle it.

    Also if you apply serious legal theory to this then of course this isn’t going to make sense. Superhero comics by NATURE don’t fit with real world laws.
    it wasn't so much randomly...as specific..I wanted to use an extremely serious and abhorrent crime without breaking the 'murder no man' law that Krakoa passed.
    Last edited by Chris0013; 02-27-2021 at 08:00 AM.

  4. #6649

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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    Lockjaw let's the inhumans go anywhere and the mu had no problem with them taking over land and citizens so I can't get worked up about the same about them having a problem with their victims having an island and teleporters. Heck val just opened a portal that can take somebody anywhere anytime with the forever gate in FF. Sounds far more dangerous than controlled gates. Anyone can sneak into the forever gate and destroy time.
    The Inhumans (until the "'recent" Avengers Vs The Entire World Fiasco) kept to themselves on the moon. From time to time, one might join the Fantastic Four (Medusa, Crystal) or Avengers; but when they did - they were a part of that team. But over all, the Inhumans stick to the dark side of the moon (blue side, whatever side) - far away from Earth.
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  5. #6650
    Astonishing Member Rang10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    it wasn't so much randomly...as specific..I wanted to use an extremely serious and abhorrent crime without breaking the 'murder no man' law that Krakoa passed.
    Krakoa has like only 3 laws, really weird for a country

  6. #6651

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    Fwiw I'm pretty sure using the gates to traffic drugs would count against "respect this land"

    As for the rape well... technically it doesn't violate the actual rules but they could always, you know, make more laws. Plus said mutant would inevitably get the shit beaten out of them, or they could just not pick them up if they're arrested outside Krakoa
    Last edited by gonnagiveittoya; 02-27-2021 at 03:40 PM.

  7. #6652
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonnagiveittoya View Post
    Fwiw I'm pretty sure using the gates to traffic drugs would count against "respect this land"

    As for the rape well... technically it doesn't violate the actual rules but they could always, you know, make more laws. Plus said mutant would inevitably get the shit beaten out of them, or they could just not pick them up if they're arrested outside Krakoa
    Never mind that I am going to have to accept the inherently goofy premise where a mutant who finally has a homeland where they don't have to look over there shoulder everyday is going to put that at risk to try to become Tony Montana(or something like that...)

  8. #6653
    Astonishing Member Rang10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    Never mind that I am going to have to accept the inherently goofy premise where a mutant who finally has a homeland where they don't have to look over there shoulder everyday is going to put that at risk to try to become Tony Montana(or something like that...)
    It's not like rich people commit crimes, krakoa even gives money to spend outside?

  9. #6654
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rang10 View Post
    It's not like rich people commit crimes, krakoa even gives money to spend outside?
    Tom Brady isn't going to set out to be Tony Montana starting in Monday.

    That's the sort of premise we are being asked to entertain.

  10. #6655
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rang10 View Post
    Krakoa has like only 3 laws, really weird for a country
    Like Kingdom X mentioned above about Ilyanna...even if it is not against a law...if you don't like what someone is doing on Krakoa you can just engage in vigilantism instead of having an actual legal framework to report to.

    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    Never mind that I am going to have to accept the inherently goofy premise where a mutant who finally has a homeland where they don't have to look over there shoulder everyday is going to put that at risk to try to become Tony Montana(or something like that...)
    These are not all people who come in with a blank slate. Look at Shaw...he murdered Kitty to try to gain more power and position. And Sabretooth made it clear he was not going to change his murderous ways. Is a high level drug dealer going to give up their criminal empire? What about a serial killer or rapist who has not yet been identified...are they just going to give up the "thrill" because Krakoa exists?

    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    Tom Brady isn't going to set out to be Tony Montana starting in Monday.

    That's the sort of premise we are being asked to entertain.
    No...I am talking about people who already have it in their nature as I mention above. Is Angel all of a sudden going to become a serial rapist or killer? No. But what about someone who already has it in their nature.

    For example a homely looking incel who has developed serious mysogynistic tendencies and sees his mutant power as a way to "get even with" or "punish" women who used to reject him.
    Last edited by Chris0013; 02-27-2021 at 04:04 PM.

  11. #6656
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    ...

    These are not all people who come in with a blank slate. Look at Shaw...he murdered Kitty to try to gain more power and position. And Sabretooth made it clear he was not going to change his murderous ways. Is a high level drug dealer going to give up their criminal empire? What about a serial killer or rapist who has not yet been identified...are they just going to give up the "thrill" because Krakoa exists?
    Here's the thing...

    You are talking about mutants(none that come to mind, mind you...) that are not living on Krakoa to start with.

    See where it's going off of the rails before it even leaves the station?

    Krakoan law is for residents of Krakoa.

  12. #6657
    Astonishing Member Rang10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    Like Kingdom X mentioned above about Ilyanna...even if it is not against a law...if you don't like what someone is doing on Krakoa you can just engage in vigilantism instead of having an actual legal framework to report to.
    For all the tons of worldbuilding being done, never getting into laws is really wrong. Even laws have to be created every years because of new ways of crimes, like cyber crime.

  13. #6658
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    Here's the thing...

    You are talking about mutants(none that come to mind, mind you...) that are not living on Krakoa to start with.

    See where it's going off of the rails before it even leaves the station?

    Krakoan law is for residents of Krakoa.
    Your assumption is that every mutant that comes to Krakoa did so for altruistic reasons...and we know that is not true. We have not been made privy to the motivations of every single one of them so we don't know.

    Unless they are instituting some sort of mandatory psi-scan for everyone who comes thru a gate whether they want it or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rang10 View Post
    For all the tons of worldbuilding being done, never getting into laws is really wrong. Even laws have to be created every years because of new ways of crimes, like cyber crime.
    I would really love to see more of that here...serious issue could arise from it such as does a mutants word carry more weight in court that a humans? We don't know what they are going to do.
    Last edited by Chris0013; 02-27-2021 at 04:21 PM.

  14. #6659
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    Krakoan law is for residents of Krakoa.
    Correct me if i remember it incorrectly. But didn't Xavier proclaim all mutants are now automatically citizen of Krakoa by default (even if they don't know it) and are therefor under their juristriction and their's alone? Which was their excuse for taking Sabtertooh away from a court of law, since under said claim he has to be sentenced under Krakoan law?

    I have been thinking for a while it would be interesting to have mutants who don't just live outside Krakoa but actualy reject it and their citizenship. Because it would be quite strange if really everyone would be on board with getting a citizenship forced upon them out of the blue or getting replicated against their will.

  15. #6660
    Astonishing Member Rang10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grunty View Post
    Correct me if i remember it incorrectly. But didn't Xavier proclaim all mutants are now automatically citizen of Krakoa by default (even if they don't know it) and are therefor under their juristriction and their's alone? Which was their excuse for taking Sabtertooh away from a court of law, since under said claim he has to be sentenced under Krakoan law?

    I have been thinking for a while it would be interesting to have mutants who don't just live outside Krakoa but actualy reject it and their forced upon citizenship. Because it would be quite strange if really everyone would be on board with getting a citizenship forced upon them out of the blue or getting replicated against their will.
    Yes, all mutants are krakoan citizen and have free transit on the gates.

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