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  1. #6706
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    Yeah, I'm there too. The Children of the Vault are just the latest Neo. Boring wannabe successors to mutant-kind, who have crap all to show for it. And like Fantomex, who can't possibly appear without the story having something to do with 'The World' (about which nobody seems to care, at all), their stories tend to involve this 'Vault' which, unlike Krakoa or Genosha or the Savage Land, is super-boring.
    At least The World and The Vault get mentioned and remembered. Meanwhile The Hill is sitting in a corner crying because nobody cares about it, despite it having the same role as these two.
    Accelerated time compared to the normal universe? Check. Weird hostile environment (acid rain, techno-organic flora and fauna, sunlight burns like lasers, rocks floating in the clouds, atmosphere causes rapid regeneration, etc.) that tests the survival abilities of anyone who lives there? Check. Used for an attempt at breeding stronger super humans? Check.
    The Hill can even claim to have been there first, but even now that Mikhail Rasputin is back as villain The Hill doesn't even get a passing note as any place of interest.

    Though it certainly didn't help that the "super humans" produced by The Hill were Gene Nation who unlike the Children of the Vault or even The Neo were never hyped up by their creator, since they their entire role was just to put Storm into a place where she had to stab a fool to death again. So right from the start they were settled with being just a bunch of "angry youths" rather than hardened survivalist their story was supposed to have made them.

    Overall though i agree that it certainly doesn't help any character to have been born in or be tied to a small self contained small world which is entirely based around producing them and with no larger connection to the Marvel universe.
    Because unlike Mojoverse, Otherworld or Limbo, who have roles and activities not tied to the characters originating from them, the Vault, the World and the Hill have no other role but produce Weapon Plus subjects, the Children or Gene Nation.
    While Fantomex is still quite successfull (which i never quite understood), it can't be said for many other characters produced from his kind of origin.

    Of course the Children of the Vault could still have a larger role in the current Hickman run, but it doesn't look like they have much of a chance to stick around once he is gone and the next status quo will likely get more grounded again.

    As for Genosha. Looking back, i once again have to notice what a massive waste it's destruction was and how it in my opinion taints any positive story aspects from the Morrison run. Because it leaves behind a legacy which not only brought down the x-men world into a further thematic darkness than it had allready been (the constant extinction storylines and "humans vs. mutants" narrative) it still hasn't recovered from, but also still breaks my willing suspension of disbelief (yes in a comic series about people born with super powers), just for how little it left an impact on the Marvel Universe.

    The destruction of a whole nation with the death of 16 million people in a few minutes, should be a big deal, even for a fictional nation in a super hero universe. Especialy since it wasn't some "hidden" civilization, but an openly existing state that had been a subject to several actions by the UN.
    What ever the narrative tries to present the entire world as hating mutants, the reaction should have still been shock, disbelief, anger and especialy questions and not just by mutants but humanity at large. Because even those who would welcome it's destruction would be keen to know where the weapon can from, who made it and how it could be countered or reproduced. Because if there was one massive mega Sentinel which could wipe out an entire island nation, there could be more and next time they could be destroying their country.

    It didn't even do good for the X-men, since while some writers liked to play Genosha as the victim card against other Marvel heros the X-men were just as apathic towards it as the rest of the marvel heros.

  2. #6707
    Praying Member zvrk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rang10 View Post
    He still is a mass murderer and commited murder hile on krakoa and because of him rockslide is dead.
    Jean Grey also committed mass murder and she's allowed on Krakoa.
    Beast also.
    Iceman too.
    Emma killed a horse.
    Wolverine could be a war criminal, given his past.
    Magneto kills depending on how well prepared is the cappuccino he drinks?

    And Rockslide dead is a big plus. Now we can resurrect Basilisk and Onyxx who are the originals he's a copy of.

  3. #6708
    Mighty Member Kingdom X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grunty View Post

    As for Genosha. Looking back, i once again have to notice what a massive waste it's destruction was and how it in my opinion taints any positive story aspects from the Morrison run. Because it leaves behind a legacy which not only brought down the x-men world into a further thematic darkness than it had allready been (the constant extinction storylines and "humans vs. mutants" narrative) it still hasn't recovered from, but also still breaks my willing suspension of disbelief (yes in a comic series about people born with super powers), just for how little it left an impact on the Marvel Universe.

    The destruction of a whole nation with the death of 16 million people in a few minutes, should be a big deal, even for a fictional nation in a super hero universe. Especialy since it wasn't some "hidden" civilization, but an openly existing state that had been a subject to several actions by the UN.

    What ever the narrative tries to present the entire world as hating mutants, the reaction should have still been shock, disbelief, anger and especialy questions and not just by mutants but humanity at large. Because even those who would welcome it's destruction would be keen to know where the weapon can from, who made it and how it could be countered or reproduced. Because if there was one massive mega Sentinel which could wipe out an entire island nation, there could be more and next time they could be destroying their country.

    It didn't even do good for the X-men, since while some writers liked to play Genosha as the victim card against other Marvel heros the X-men were just as apathic towards it as the rest of the marvel heros.
    You make a really great point here. If anything the Genosha incident should have led to a huge increase in humans that sympathize with mutants. The majority/ privileged group is often apathetic to the struggles of the "other", until very public and catastrophic events (like a nation-wide genocide) occur.

  4. #6709
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grunty View Post
    As for Genosha. Looking back, i once again have to notice what a massive waste it's destruction was and how it in my opinion taints any positive story aspects from the Morrison run. Because it leaves behind a legacy which not only brought down the x-men world into a further thematic darkness than it had allready been (the constant extinction storylines and "humans vs. mutants" narrative) it still hasn't recovered from, but also still breaks my willing suspension of disbelief (yes in a comic series about people born with super powers), just for how little it left an impact on the Marvel Universe.

    The destruction of a whole nation with the death of 16 million people in a few minutes, should be a big deal, even for a fictional nation in a super hero universe. Especialy since it wasn't some "hidden" civilization, but an openly existing state that had been a subject to several actions by the UN.
    What ever the narrative tries to present the entire world as hating mutants, the reaction should have still been shock, disbelief, anger and especialy questions and not just by mutants but humanity at large. Because even those who would welcome it's destruction would be keen to know where the weapon can from, who made it and how it could be countered or reproduced. Because if there was one massive mega Sentinel which could wipe out an entire island nation, there could be more and next time they could be destroying their country.

    It didn't even do good for the X-men, since while some writers liked to play Genosha as the victim card against other Marvel heros the X-men were just as apathic towards it as the rest of the marvel heros.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    You make a really great point here. If anything the Genosha incident should have led to a huge increase in humans that sympathize with mutants. The majority/ privileged group is often apathetic to the struggles of the "other", until very public and catastrophic events (like a nation-wide genocide) occur.

    I have said this many times......but it is more realistic if anti-mutant sentiment swings back and forth. As well as there being areas that really don't experience it like how San Francisco was during that time period for the X-Men. Something as big as Genosha...or even something as small as a handful of mutants being abused by drug dealers to produce MGH...can swing public opinion to side with mutants.

    Unfortunately all the X-Office seems to want to do is keep pushing into the darker side of the narrative that all humans (with few exceptions) are genocidal racists.

  5. #6710

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    Quote Originally Posted by cam18 View Post
    The over vilification of Prfoessor X not a fan of it I don't want a Saint or expect it but I would like the for the founder to be at his core a decent person I just feel they the push the grey boundary to far to the point of villainy and it doesn't work for me personally.
    Not a fan of Schism and AvX era/Cyclops is right Scott Summers......I feel in the claremont era they did a good job of giving cyke an edge without what I feel has been in certain respects character assassination in the later years something im not sure his character his truly recovered from.
    Emma Frost as an X-Man im still mixed on this sometimes I like it sometimes I don't but I feel she was one of the better female antagonist of the xmen and to kind of lose that I dunno....
    Heh - methinks, you - like myself - may be an older reader?

    Because I agree on the whole vilification of Xavier.
    Also agree about Cyclops.
    And also agree about Emma Frost. On one side, being a hero allows her to get more spotlight - so she can be further developed.
    But I think since joining the X-Men, she went from a women in a corset - to a woman, who got massive implants, in a corset.
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  6. #6711
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    Quote Originally Posted by zvrk View Post
    Jean Grey also committed mass murder and she's allowed on Krakoa.
    Beast also.
    Iceman too.
    Emma killed a horse.
    Wolverine could be a war criminal, given his past.
    Magneto kills depending on how well prepared is the cappuccino he drinks?

    And Rockslide dead is a big plus. Now we can resurrect Basilisk and Onyxx who are the originals he's a copy of.
    Jean Grey never commited mass murder, because they retconned that.

    yeah there is others killers on the island but none of them are on theleel of apocalypse. he said he was the responsible for the bronze age fall.
    he also infected baby cable and on Cable future he was a dictator responsible for a distopian future.

    Rockslide dead won't make the return of these mutants that nobody that no one knows. So yeah Apocalypse still killing mutants for his own good

  7. #6712
    Praying Member zvrk's Avatar
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    Just like Emma Frost shouldn't be allowed near teenagers to teach in a corset and a thong Colossus and Iceman shouldn't be allowed to parade around the school in their boxers only, which shows of their bulges. I mean, dress yourselves up, seX-Men. It does a great disservice to young mutants exploding with hormones.
    Last edited by zvrk; 02-28-2021 at 08:11 AM. Reason: wrong words

  8. #6713

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    Quote Originally Posted by zvrk View Post
    Jean Grey also committed mass murder and she's allowed on Krakoa.
    Beast also.
    Iceman too.
    Emma killed a horse.
    Wolverine could be a war criminal, given his past.
    Magneto kills depending on how well prepared is the cappuccino he drinks?

    And Rockslide dead is a big plus. Now we can resurrect Basilisk and Onyxx who are the originals he's a copy of.
    Did Jean commit mass murder? If you mean as Dark Phoenix? Because technically - not Jean right?
    Phoenix Force took over Jean - put her in a cocoon when the plane crashed to Earth - took over her life.
    Everything from Uncanny X-Men #101 to #137 isn't Jean - but rather, the Phoenix Force; while Jean slept peacefully at the bottom of the ocean.
    She was found in Avengers #263 (http://comicreliefpodcast.com/wp-con...9/IMG_0901.png) and then revealed in Fantastic Four #286 (http://comicreliefpodcast.com/wp-con...9/FF286A-1.png)
    And that's when she would join X-Factor.
    Unless - they've retconned that? Or Jean has committed mass murder after that? (Honestly not sure with how many times she's died and come back since then - during the Morrison run I stopped caring)

    And I don't recall Iceman or Beast killing anyone?

    Emma killing a horse - well, all of us meat eaters would be considered partakers of murder in that case (as we all eat cows and chicken).

    Wolverine, as a war criminal - possible. And he's certainly even killed people - since then.

    And Magneto, for sure is a murderer (sunk that sub full of soldiers - granted, he was sort of defending himself)
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  9. #6714
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grunty View Post
    At least The World and The Vault get mentioned and remembered. Meanwhile The Hill is sitting in a corner crying because nobody cares about it, despite it having the same role as these two.
    Accelerated time compared to the normal universe? Check. Weird hostile environment (acid rain, techno-organic flora and fauna, sunlight burns like lasers, rocks floating in the clouds, atmosphere causes rapid regeneration, etc.) that tests the survival abilities of anyone who lives there? Check. Used for an attempt at breeding stronger super humans? Check.
    The Hill can even claim to have been there first, but even now that Mikhail Rasputin is back as villain The Hill doesn't even get a passing note as any place of interest.

    Though it certainly didn't help that the "super humans" produced by The Hill were Gene Nation who unlike the Children of the Vault or even The Neo were never hyped up by their creator, since they their entire role was just to put Storm into a place where she had to stab a fool to death again. So right from the start they were settled with being just a bunch of "angry youths" rather than hardened survivalist their story was supposed to have made them.

    Overall though i agree that it certainly doesn't help any character to have been born in or be tied to a small self contained small world which is entirely based around producing them and with no larger connection to the Marvel universe.
    Because unlike Mojoverse, Otherworld or Limbo, who have roles and activities not tied to the characters originating from them, the Vault, the World and the Hill have no other role but produce Weapon Plus subjects, the Children or Gene Nation.
    While Fantomex is still quite successfull (which i never quite understood), it can't be said for many other characters produced from his kind of origin.

    Of course the Children of the Vault could still have a larger role in the current Hickman run, but it doesn't look like they have much of a chance to stick around once he is gone and the next status quo will likely get more grounded again.

    As for Genosha. Looking back, i once again have to notice what a massive waste it's destruction was and how it in my opinion taints any positive story aspects from the Morrison run. Because it leaves behind a legacy which not only brought down the x-men world into a further thematic darkness than it had allready been (the constant extinction storylines and "humans vs. mutants" narrative) it still hasn't recovered from, but also still breaks my willing suspension of disbelief (yes in a comic series about people born with super powers), just for how little it left an impact on the Marvel Universe.

    The destruction of a whole nation with the death of 16 million people in a few minutes, should be a big deal, even for a fictional nation in a super hero universe. Especialy since it wasn't some "hidden" civilization, but an openly existing state that had been a subject to several actions by the UN.
    What ever the narrative tries to present the entire world as hating mutants, the reaction should have still been shock, disbelief, anger and especialy questions and not just by mutants but humanity at large. Because even those who would welcome it's destruction would be keen to know where the weapon can from, who made it and how it could be countered or reproduced. Because if there was one massive mega Sentinel which could wipe out an entire island nation, there could be more and next time they could be destroying their country.

    It didn't even do good for the X-men, since while some writers liked to play Genosha as the victim card against other Marvel heros the X-men were just as apathic towards it as the rest of the marvel heros.
    Totally agree. It is weird how entire nation's destruction caused so little reaction from the wider Marvel Universe. How no one freaked out, how no government demanded answers, etc. Unfortunately, the same happened with Decimation. Millions of people all around the world were affected simultaneously, based only on one similar gene. And yet, the only reaction was "Hooray, the mutants are dead!" It is ridiculous how no one been afraid that tomorrow they would be the next target. Especially people like Jews or other groups that were persecuted in the past based on their genetic. There should have been a world-wide outrage, panic and demand for answers, but no one seemed to care.

  10. #6715

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    Quote Originally Posted by zvrk View Post
    Just like Emma Frost shouldn't be allowed near teenagers to teach in a corset - It does a great disservice to young mutants exploding with hormones.
    I wish I could remember which episode of the podcast I do we talked about this very thing.
    Every (straight) male mutant wants her to be the teacher, while every female mutant who isn't 100% body positive about themselves is being mentally destroyed.
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  11. #6716
    Praying Member zvrk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam-X View Post
    Did Jean commit mass murder? If you mean as Dark Phoenix? Because technically - not Jean right?
    Phoenix Force took over Jean - put her in a cocoon when the plane crashed to Earth - took over her life.
    Everything from Uncanny X-Men #101 to #137 isn't Jean - but rather, the Phoenix Force; while Jean slept peacefully at the bottom of the ocean.
    She was found in Avengers #263 (http://comicreliefpodcast.com/wp-con...9/IMG_0901.png) and then revealed in Fantastic Four #286 (http://comicreliefpodcast.com/wp-con...9/FF286A-1.png)
    And that's when she would join X-Factor.
    Unless - they've retconned that? Or Jean has committed mass murder after that? (Honestly not sure with how many times she's died and come back since then - during the Morrison run I stopped caring)

    And I don't recall Iceman or Beast killing anyone?

    Emma killing a horse - well, all of us meat eaters would be considered partakers of murder in that case (as we all eat cows and chicken).

    Wolverine, as a war criminal - possible. And he's certainly even killed people - since then.

    And Magneto, for sure is a murderer (sunk that sub full of soldiers - granted, he was sort of defending himself)
    I'd say in the court, it was Jean. It has her DNA, her thought, emotions, memories, all her. Wasn't she mindlinked with Phoenix while in cacoon? If so...

    Beast killed ppl in a parallel universe - Astonishing X-Men ghostbox arc.

    Iceman inseminated with Apocalypse seed froze whole New York in Liu's Astonishing X-men arc. God knows how many ppl died off panel.

    Emma also killed her sister. I forgot about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam-X View Post
    I wish I could remember which episode of the podcast I do we talked about this very thing.
    Every (straight) male mutant wants her to be the teacher, while every female mutant who isn't 100% body positive about themselves is being mentally destroyed.
    So true.
    Last edited by zvrk; 02-28-2021 at 08:23 AM. Reason: addendum

  12. #6717
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    Quote Originally Posted by zvrk View Post
    I'd say in the court, it was Jean. It has her DNA, her thought, emotions, memories, all her. Wasn't she mindlinked with Phoenix while in cacoon? If so...

    Beast killed ppl in a parallel universe - Astonishing X-Men ghostbox arc.

    Iceman inseminated with Apocalypse seed froze whole New York in Liu's Astonishing X-men arc. God knows how many ppl died off panel.

    Emma also killed her sister. I forgot about it.

    .
    Emma killed a lot of people, not only her sisters.

    Not that wasn't Jean grey at all

  13. #6718
    Praying Member zvrk's Avatar
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    Genetically, spiritually yes she was.

    Just like any freshly resurrected Krakoan mutant. Phoenix copies just like Cerebro does and creates clones.
    Last edited by zvrk; 02-28-2021 at 08:27 AM. Reason: more thoughts

  14. #6719
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    Quote Originally Posted by zvrk View Post
    Genetically, spiritually yes she was.
    Nope Jean was at the bottom of the jamaica bay. she only had a piece of the soul. Madelyne also would be considered to be Jean Grey by the same logic

  15. #6720
    Praying Member zvrk's Avatar
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    Oh yes, she's Jean 2.0. Nice one.

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