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  1. #6721
    Astonishing Member Rang10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zvrk View Post
    Oh yes, she's Jean 2.0. Nice one.
    she can't be Jean 2.0. she is Jean or she isnt

  2. #6722
    Incredible Member davetvs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grunty View Post
    At least The World and The Vault get mentioned and remembered. Meanwhile The Hill is sitting in a corner crying because nobody cares about it, despite it having the same role as these two.
    Accelerated time compared to the normal universe? Check. Weird hostile environment (acid rain, techno-organic flora and fauna, sunlight burns like lasers, rocks floating in the clouds, atmosphere causes rapid regeneration, etc.) that tests the survival abilities of anyone who lives there? Check. Used for an attempt at breeding stronger super humans? Check.
    The Hill can even claim to have been there first, but even now that Mikhail Rasputin is back as villain The Hill doesn't even get a passing note as any place of interest.

    Though it certainly didn't help that the "super humans" produced by The Hill were Gene Nation who unlike the Children of the Vault or even The Neo were never hyped up by their creator, since they their entire role was just to put Storm into a place where she had to stab a fool to death again. So right from the start they were settled with being just a bunch of "angry youths" rather than hardened survivalist their story was supposed to have made them.

    Overall though i agree that it certainly doesn't help any character to have been born in or be tied to a small self contained small world which is entirely based around producing them and with no larger connection to the Marvel universe.
    Because unlike Mojoverse, Otherworld or Limbo, who have roles and activities not tied to the characters originating from them, the Vault, the World and the Hill have no other role but produce Weapon Plus subjects, the Children or Gene Nation.
    While Fantomex is still quite successfull (which i never quite understood), it can't be said for many other characters produced from his kind of origin.

    Of course the Children of the Vault could still have a larger role in the current Hickman run, but it doesn't look like they have much of a chance to stick around once he is gone and the next status quo will likely get more grounded again.

    As for Genosha. Looking back, i once again have to notice what a massive waste it's destruction was and how it in my opinion taints any positive story aspects from the Morrison run. Because it leaves behind a legacy which not only brought down the x-men world into a further thematic darkness than it had allready been (the constant extinction storylines and "humans vs. mutants" narrative) it still hasn't recovered from, but also still breaks my willing suspension of disbelief (yes in a comic series about people born with super powers), just for how little it left an impact on the Marvel Universe.

    The destruction of a whole nation with the death of 16 million people in a few minutes, should be a big deal, even for a fictional nation in a super hero universe. Especialy since it wasn't some "hidden" civilization, but an openly existing state that had been a subject to several actions by the UN.
    What ever the narrative tries to present the entire world as hating mutants, the reaction should have still been shock, disbelief, anger and especialy questions and not just by mutants but humanity at large. Because even those who would welcome it's destruction would be keen to know where the weapon can from, who made it and how it could be countered or reproduced. Because if there was one massive mega Sentinel which could wipe out an entire island nation, there could be more and next time they could be destroying their country.

    It didn't even do good for the X-men, since while some writers liked to play Genosha as the victim card against other Marvel heros the X-men were just as apathic towards it as the rest of the marvel heros.
    I honestly think the world shrugging its shoulders about what happened to Genosha makes the marginalized group metaphor even more accurate. Human rights atrocities happen all the time, all over the world, without anyone so much as batting an eyelash if the people are "different" from them.

  3. #6723
    Mighty Member Kingdom X's Avatar
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    I have said this many times but it is more realistic if anti-mutant sentiment swings back and forth. As well as there being areas that really don't experience it like how San Francisco was during that time period for the X-Men. Something as big as Genosha...or even something as small as a handful of mutants being abused by drug dealers to produce MGH...can swing public opinion to side with mutants.

    Unfortunately all the X-Office seems to want to do is keep pushing into the darker side of the narrative that all humans (with few exceptions) are genocidal racists.
    Yeah I definitely think we're missing out on a lot of nuanced stories. We know that even if mainstream public opinion changes there will still be a ton of (sometimes) closeted anti-mutant racists, so we could still get our classic mutant vs. human bigot stories while pushing the narrative forward.

    I honestly think the world shrugging its shoulders about what happened to Genosha makes the marginalized group metaphor even more accurate. Human rights atrocities happen all the time, all over the world, without anyone so much as batting an eyelash if the people are "different" from them.
    Trying to find the best words to articulate this, but I both agree and disagree. Totally agree that a bunch of people wouldn't care because mutants are different, but I also think you'd have a bunch of people pop up as "allies" and at least act as if they care about mutant rights. Not saying that anti-mutant bigotry would disappear, but I think there'd be more of a split at least for a little while.

  4. #6724
    Astonishing Member Rang10's Avatar
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    Something like Genosha would attract lots of atention, because if robots did that to a island full of people with superpowers, it could wipe millions in few minutes until avengers arrived.
    It is scary AF, just because it was mutants people would never shrug

  5. #6725
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davetvs View Post
    I honestly think the world shrugging its shoulders about what happened to Genosha makes the marginalized group metaphor even more accurate. Human rights atrocities happen all the time, all over the world, without anyone so much as batting an eyelash if the people are "different" from them.
    Human rights atrocities happen all the time, all over the world, without much ado, even when the people are not different from them too… Every time, a “us” vs “them” appears, there’s a risk of violence.

  6. #6726
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    You make a really great point here. If anything the Genosha incident should have led to a huge increase in humans that sympathize with mutants. The majority/ privileged group is often apathetic to the struggles of the "other", until very public and catastrophic events (like a nation-wide genocide) occur.
    It depends on the mediatic coverage. If the public doesn’t have the images… it cannot be moved.

  7. #6727
    Astonishing Member Rang10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    It depends on the mediatic coverage. If the public doesn’t have the images… it cannot be moved.
    of course they have the iage of the country all destroyed

  8. #6728

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    Quote Originally Posted by zvrk View Post
    I'd say in the court, it was Jean. It has her DNA, her thought, emotions, memories, all her. Wasn't she mindlinked with Phoenix while in cacoon? If so...
    My only argument to that is - people who are born as identical twins - often share the same DNA, emotions, etc.

    I don't think the court would throw a twin in jail, if they knew it was the other twin - just because of DNA and similar memories.

    I'd say the Phoenix Force took an imprint of Jean - but when it went at ate the planet in Uncanny X-Men #136, and such - that was the Phoenix Force - because I am pretty sure it's never been in Jean to destroy planets.
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  9. #6729
    Amazing Member cam18's Avatar
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    Another is AvX shouldn't have been over the Phoenix Force........because of that story a whole bunch of Wanda fans think she could just say no more Phoenix and the Phoenix would be gone for good.
    Last edited by cam18; 02-28-2021 at 09:42 AM.

  10. #6730

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    Quote Originally Posted by cam18 View Post
    Another is AvX shouldn't have been over the Phoenix Force........because of that story a whole bunch of Wanda fans think she could just say no more Phoenix and the Phoenix would be gone for good.
    If only.

    But then someone would use Rachel Summers as a reason that a small essence of it remained.

    Or because the very nature of the Phoenix, it always rises from death.

    And get used to death.

    Over and over.

    Until it's utterly not special anymore.

    Like... they've already done.

    The Phoenix Force should have remained dead with UXM #137. And be done with it.
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  11. #6731
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam-X View Post
    If only.

    But then someone would use Rachel Summers as a reason that a small essence of it remained.

    Or because the very nature of the Phoenix, it always rises from death.

    And get used to death.

    Over and over.

    Until it's utterly not special anymore.

    Like... they've already done.

    The Phoenix Force should have remained dead with UXM #137. And be done with it.
    Along with Jean....they could have formed X-Factor with Rachel in Jean's place.

  12. #6732
    Astonishing Member Rang10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    Along with Jean....they could have formed X-Factor with Rachel in Jean's place.
    Jean would return to life anyway, that train would leave the station anyway. And Rachel on Jean's place is not a good substitute

  13. #6733
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    Quote Originally Posted by davetvs View Post
    I honestly think the world shrugging its shoulders about what happened to Genosha makes the marginalized group metaphor even more accurate. Human rights atrocities happen all the time, all over the world, without anyone so much as batting an eyelash if the people are "different" from them.
    I have to disagree here.

    I agree that the marginalized group metaphor related to the X-men and mutants can be used to shocase various dark moments of apathy or inaction among the population of various countries or communities when it comes to the atrocities commited to certain minorities. But in my opinion it mainly works when these events are spread over longer time, localized and/or can be ignorable by the mainstream media of the Marvel universe.

    But as Kingdom X pointed out. Even with these examples, in reality you would have various activist groups, supportive majorities in certain countries or prominent supporters who would constantly try to draw attention to these situation, voice criticism of inactivity by communities or governments and mainstream media trying to fill their programm with bringing it up regulary.

    However where i mainly disagree on applying the (unfortunate widespread) apathy towards minority plights to the destruction of Genosha is the magnitute of the destruction and deaths, together with the timescale and the fact that it involves the destruction of an entire nation, minority and majority included. Not to forget that the majority in this case were the mutants.

    These 16 million deaths, weren't the result of a sad statistic taken from global incidents measured over years. It was a singular act performed with a weapon of mass destruction (by a third party no less) against a whole nation, which involved the deaths of both the majority and minority that the nation was composed of.

    Considering that Genosha was a stand in for South Africa under the Apartheid laws, let's use it as example for how the destruction of Genosha would metaphorical look in the real world.

    An unknown and uninvolved in the countries ethnicities person, unleashes a super weapon, secretly developed without any nations involvement on South Africa killing 60 million people (both the black majorities and the colored or white minorities) in the span of minutes.
    Meanwhile the entire UN just shrugs, no nation reacts by sending relief, military forces or even investigates. Not even the neighbouring countries. The super weapon even remains on site for years with nobody really being interested in finding out what it was, who build it and how it worked. Only 2 people go to visit and look through the rubble for survivors. Followed by a few dozen more a few months later. Meanwhile a few days later anti-african protests flame up across the globe and nobody from the government or majorities in these countries cares to condemn said protests.

    That's the destruction of Genosha, when taken into a real world context or used as metaphor.

    Though i admit, there is a lot of "stuff blowing up in super hero comics" logic involved either way. The same reason Genosha wasn't given any real impact in the Marvel Universe is the same reason Xorn's (as Magneto) destruction of New York (and the deaths of thousands of people) has been forgotten and brushed aside just as easily. Or why nobody talks about the sad loss of Las Vegas.

    Still it's the reason why i consider the destruction of Genosha as a bad badly written storyline done for the sole purpose of a shock value, which however added nothing to the X-men franchise and instead robbed it of an interesting setting, which could have been explored for decades.

    If Hickman's run really ends with a soft-reset i hope it brings Genosha back. Since i personaly consider a post-mutant apartheid nation much more interesting to explore than a magic wonder island for mutants where they live in paradise and are immortal thanks to mass replication.
    Last edited by Grunty; 02-28-2021 at 01:10 PM.

  14. #6734
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rang10 View Post
    Jean would return to life anyway, that train would leave the station anyway. And Rachel on Jean's place is not a good substitute
    The original intention was for Jean to be dead...end of story. I think with Rachel...as Scott's and Jean's alternate reality daughter with powers comparable to Jean...she would be a good replacement...and maybe even Maddie and Nathan would not have gone through all the crap they did.

  15. #6735

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rang10 View Post
    Jean would return to life anyway, that train would leave the station anyway. And Rachel on Jean's place is not a good substitute
    Here's the thing - I would have been fine - if they brought Jean back the way they did. Cocoon on the bottom of the lake - found by the Avengers, revived by the Fantastic Four - and Jean joins X-Factor.

    And leave the Phoenix Force completely out of it. We just get Jean back - maybe with amplified Telepathy/TK powers during the brief moment the Phoenix Force touched Jean's mind, so that Jean can be used very effectively.

    But Phoenix Force. Gone. Forever.
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