Your Unpopular/Controversial Opinions on the X-Universe

[Lucyinthesky]

I was just going to say in a reply to your other post that treating different eras as being a bit more self-contained can help to avoid getting caught up in inconsistencies and contradictions with character portrayals, but I am sure it is just as relevant here. I suppose it is easier to brush off the old stories we do not feel contribute to the idea of the character we prefer, although ultimately the writers are going to make that decision for their story, and to a new generation that is the now the truth.

I agree we could just see a kind of "new character" everytime a writer tackles them or gives them their own interpretation but in that case, why would marvel involve continuity at all?, we could just have open and closed stories and be done with it if that´s the case, yet there are characters that have become iconic at marvel and DC precisely because their continuity helped to built their personality and motivations during decades.

That said, in Magneto´s case Claremont didn´t overwrite him from a blank slate, he took in consideration his silver age story, including him being reverted to a baby, his first story with him was about menacing to destroy the nations of the world because they were a menace to mutants and take revenge on the X-men, he just went on to develop his character from there, allowing him to become from "a poor man´s Dr Doom" as he was seen during the silver age into a character in his own right, with his own dimensions and pov and this is why I appreciate when writers take some time to know the characters they are writing, instead of just writting over them to suit the needs of the plot or the story they want to tell. I love self contained stories, I just want their characterization to make sense if they are going to use characters with a long lasting story.

[marhawkman]

The few 'proof' panels are so out of context or ignoring the subtle (not so subtle) use of calling someone gay as an insult back in the 90s. In one panel, Bobby is just hoping Jean was reading his mind so he did not have to actually ask her for help about a problem he had that was already explicitly stated in the comic, there was no question of what he hoped she knew, and Emma is quite simply attacking his masculinity/manhood. But yeah, people making gay jokes as far back the 90s is proof that the meme character is actually coded gay. You can't discuss it with them because most of them were not even reading comics, they just get everything off someone's Twitter or whatever. It is the reason as soon as I see someone just grab one single panel as proof anything in comics I usually just skip out of the conversation.

Heh, and dismiss all of the counter-examples as "fake". For example: in X-Men: TAS, what was the reason why Iceman quit the X-Men?

Because Polaris left and he went with her. Yes... "with" her.... as a group... at the same time... probably in the same car. Pretty sure it was implied they were planning to live together.

[CosmiComic]

The writers are not trying to offend the readers that's the whole point of using a fiction slur.

As to the second bolded part that is not true at all. Someone earlier already gave you the mudblood example from Harry Potter which was clearly very impactful and got the point across that they look down on her for her heritage. Replacing this with a black person being called the N word would have done more harm than good and would have just been unnecessary

What do you mean it's not true? No fictional slur can ever have the same impact as a real one, because people reading it have some familiarity with the first and none with the second. And no one's saying replace fictional slurs with real ones

I mean you listed it with the Luke and Kate scenarios

Well, those specific situations did offend me, for good reason. I though you were talking about something else, though

again magneto has gone through many changes I'm not going to list all of his different iterations but the main one was how his ideology differed from Xavier in what was best for mutants as Malcom's did for MLK.

Yes, Magneto changed but he still committed terrible acts far beyond anything I recall Malcom X doing. And MLK advocated non-violent resistance, which doesn't exactly square up with Xavier training mutants in combat.

Even with everything that has happened in universe to mutants?

Yeah. It's not centuries of abuse towards preceding generations, not to mention throughout all of MLK's life. Xavier is quite different from that

I already gave you examples of intersectionality of mutants with their other minority status talked about or brought up in X stories. These stories do get talked about so I don't know why you keep saying that.

That was never the argument. The argument was that you had a problem with white people being used to talk about minority parallel stories. Even though in universe mutants are a minority and that somehow makes the metaphor not work.

You said it was never the argument but you, not I, brought up the argument of non-White people being traumatized. I didn't dismiss your examples, but that's not exactly the same as the concepts you said would be problematic. But I don't think your examples are really enough

And you still can't see why replacing real minorities heroes with majority ones only affected by a fictional paradise in an industry lacking in actual minority heroes and artists is problematic?

No it isn't because mutants are fictional. You are allowed to get away with a lot of stories that would be deemed offensive if instead of mutants you replaced them with the actual minority group. A perfect example was during the X of Swords event Wolverine was lynched in a dream sequence. I don't believe for a second that black people would be happier to see Storm being lynched.

Again those issues do get talked about but they are not going to get as much focus because what plagues mutants as a whole is going to take precedence, but to act like those types of stories are not being told at all is just not true.

When at any point did I or anyone else say they wanted to see that happen to Storm? I've said before the X-Men portrayal of bigotry is extreme and lacks nuance, so why would I want to see that? Racism, for example, comes in different forms than just robots trying to kill minorities. I never wanted to see Black X-men portrayed like that in the first place. I just want accurate yet respectful portrayals of minority experiences. Ultimately, my main point is real prejudice can be shown properly in superhero comics. I'm not going to jump to such extreme examples because it's not necessary

And those issues don't get talked about as much because Marvel thinks fake bigotry is more important to the story.

[Castle]

So now the movies that you normally praise up and down shouldnÂ’t have that scene because it gave someone the idea to make Bobby gay?

You still havenÂ’t said what the problem with him being gay is. Were you particularly attached to one of his straight romances (again none of which worked out)? Otherwise the character is literally the same.

Where did you get the idea that I like all the movies? I look at most movies separately and view them mostly as self contained films made by persons in a different universe separate from the comics. my likeness of a film is based on the film making quality and that alone. However I am still a proponent that comics and movies should be separate to noticeable extent, and while I think X2 was a very well made artistically done comic film and for a comic book pg 13 movie, handled many adult themes extremely well. this particular scene did not need to start influencing the comics.

If Rogue did not starting jumping into bed with Bobby in the comics because of this movie, why should Bobby now be gay in the comics? I already said what the issue was? it was done simply for weak political reasons. Bobby been gay did not have the same significance in the genre like Northstar and even Mystique and Destiny, despite the 80s comic code still trying to mostly restrict that.

Ironically, this was probably the best executed scene in the entire franchise as far as conveying the mutant metaphor in a way that would resonate and stick with audiences. This idea that mutants are all around us and some are just hiding out of fear, but that mutant powers aren't something to be ashamed of but rather should be celebrated and embraced, and the real tragedy is that even close family members can't overcome their prejudices. It doesn't hit you over the head with high strung speeches about tolerance or whatever, but the message gets across just the same.

I will give it that as one of the best scenes, if I was looking at just the writing and directing alone, it is one of the top 3 scenes of conveying the metaphor. although my favourite was the opening of Days of future past, seeing actual people both mutants and humans in chains, sent to concertation camps and just seeing a large truck just dumb many dead bodies on the floor. that was when it just not became a metaphor, it was just a a pure reflection of the evil of oppression.

This scene of Bobby X2 is quite sophisticated, not many may even get the inner story of that is going. However the opening scene of DOFP...Let me just out it this way, even if you have never heard the phrase coming out , you must have heard of slavery and the genocide of many groups of people. DOFP opening scene just went straight for the jugular on that.




I may even like this better than the Magneto scene in X-MEN 1 because, Magneto did not even know he was a mutant. he was just a Jewish kid trying to fend off Nazis, but this time seeing the actual mutants and the x-men getting wiped out, that was really sad.

[Grinning Soul]

Because Bobby's has a plethora of functioning heterosexual relationships to prove that he's straight... oh wait literally none of them worked out and he never had a character defining relationship like ScottxJean, WarrenxBetsy, etc. Matter of fact Austen confirmed that Lorna and Bobby never had sex.

I guess my thing is that people do identify as straight for decades and then come out. They can even have positive hetero sexual and romantic experiences and then decide that they feel differently one day.

Now if a character like Scott who has had these huge storylines centered around his love for Jean and Emma came out as gay I would look at it sideways. Whereas I look at Bobby who has always struggled in the romance department, his issues with self-confidence, and hiding his true feelings and it doesn’t seem that crazy that he’d be in the closet.

But failed relationships are very common for a character who was created a long time ago. Particularly the male characters, especially if they have a solo book. But that may only mean they're bad at romantic relationships (in fact, most heterosexual persons are very bad at them) or that their hero/vigilante lives make those relationships really difficult to maintain.

I never really understood this argument.

[Sylarmax]

I guess my thing is that people do identify as straight for decades and then come out. They can even have positive hetero sexual and romantic experiences and then decide that they feel differently one day.

Now if a character like Scott who has had these huge storylines centered around his love for Jean and Emma came out as gay I would look at it sideways. Whereas I look at Bobby who has always struggled in the romance department, his issues with self-confidence, and hiding his true feelings and it doesn’t seem that crazy that he’d be in the closet.

Scott NOW IS BISEX with Wolverine . By hickman

[Sylarmax]

The Bobby thing is not forced, there are many frustrated gay people, especially older people, who even got tired and had a double heterosexual life just to fit in with society, so the Bobby thing does not seem crazy to me.


And that Logan and Scott are bisex now should not be something to be alarmed about, being bisexual does not affect the heterosexual relationships they had throughout history, and in real life there are more bisexuals than people think.

[Kingdom X]

Heh, and dismiss all of the counter-examples as "fake". For example: in X-Men: TAS, what was the reason why Iceman quit the X-Men?

Because Polaris left and he went with her. Yes... "with" her.... as a group... at the same time... probably in the same car. Pretty sure it was implied they were planning to live together.

Why would we count the animated series in discussions of 616 Bobby…

At the end of the day not one person has been able to describe to me what their actual issue is, outside of “the change is FORCED.” That’s not an actual reason. Bobby’s personality and temperament has been pretty consistent and he has the same story potential that he did before. Again I would understand if you were really invested in one of Bobby’s hetero relationships, but no one here seems to be and they were pretty much all in the dirt when he came out.

I’ll also note that I was very against the way that Bendis did it and that it seemed like he did for the sake of leaving a permanent mark on the franchise. However in the long-term I don’t think it’s “damaged” the character.

[jwatson]

Why would we count the animated series in discussions of 616 Bobby…

At the end of the day not one person has been able to describe to me what their actual issue is, outside of “the change is FORCED.” That’s not an actual reason. Bobby’s personality and temperament has been pretty consistent and he has the same story potential that he did before. Again I would understand if you were really invested in one of Bobby’s hetero relationships, but no one here seems to be and they were pretty much all in the dirt when he came out.

I’ll also note that I was very against the way that Bendis did it and that it seemed like he did for the sake of leaving a permanent mark on the franchise. However in the long-term I don’t think it’s “damaged” the character.

You won't get an answer but i don't think it's intentional. It is that there is no answer because fundamentally it should not matter to anyone but they can't explain why it does For instance a mother who loves her child but then somehow that child is different because of their "lifestyle" yet that same parent preaches that god teaches love but won't search for the other scriptures (which do exist) that show god loves all love.

[Lucyinthesky]

Why would we count the animated series in discussions of 616 Bobby…

At the end of the day not one person has been able to describe to me what their actual issue is, outside of “the change is FORCED.” That’s not an actual reason. Bobby’s personality and temperament has been pretty consistent and he has the same story potential that he did before. Again I would understand if you were really invested in one of Bobby’s hetero relationships, but no one here seems to be and they were pretty much all in the dirt when he came out.

I’ll also note that I was very against the way that Bendis did it and that it seemed like he did for the sake of leaving a permanent mark on the franchise. However in the long-term I don’t think it’s “damaged” the character.

This was my perception too and this is why I thought it felt forced, it seemed like Bendis did that revelation not because he had a long running narrative for it but because he could not think of anything else for Bobby, he thought about making Jean a leader, Scott being conflicted with his older self, Hank with his occult discoveries and Angel with his conflict over staying with the X-men or go with Scott´s team, all of them had a narrative going for them but Bobby stayed same, being the younger one, who ocasionaly dated(well more like talked on the phone, told some jokes and that was it. I usually like Bendis writting but on this I don´t think he did a lot of thought with this but he´s hardly the only one who has yet to do much with Bobby, I think since the 90´s not a lot of writters have tried to do an exploration of his character, at least during that time he explored his powers and his relationship with his Dad, now he doesn´t seem to be doing much.

[Grinning Soul]

Why would we count the animated series in discussions of 616 Bobby…

At the end of the day not one person has been able to describe to me what their actual issue is, outside of “the change is FORCED.” That’s not an actual reason. Bobby’s personality and temperament has been pretty consistent and he has the same story potential that he did before. Again I would understand if you were really invested in one of Bobby’s hetero relationships, but no one here seems to be and they were pretty much all in the dirt when he came out.

I’ll also note that I was very against the way that Bendis did it and that it seemed like he did for the sake of leaving a permanent mark on the franchise. However in the long-term I don’t think it’s “damaged” the character.

But couldn't one say the same about any other character? How would Reed Richards be "damaged" if he was turned gay? Some people would say: "there are a lot of gay men who marry and have kids too".

The fact it doesn't "damage" a character or that you can justify as "but people of this orientation go through it" is not an argument for the change either.

Certain experiences are shared, they're not exclusive of this or that sexual orientation. They're simply human.

[Kingdom X]

But couldn't one say the same about any other character? How would Reed Richards be "damaged" if he was turned gay? Some people would say: "there are a lot of gay men who marry and have kids too".

The fact it doesn't "damage" a character or that you can justify as "but people of this orientation go through it" is not an argument for the change either.

Certain experiences are shared, they're not exclusive of this or that sexual orientation. They're simply human.

Ok but I would understand fan outrage if Reed came out as gay because being with Sue has been a huge part of his character since his inception. They’re probably the highest profile married couple in comics besides Clark and Lois.

I’m not arguing that Bobby “needed” to be gay, but he is now. Period. I’m personally trying to understand why people are really upset about it.

[Grinning Soul]

Ok but I would understand fan outrage if Reed came out as gay because being with Sue has been a huge part of his character since his inception. They’re probably the highest profile married couple in comics besides Clark and Lois.

I’m not arguing that Bobby “needed” to be gay, but he is now. Period. I’m personally trying to understand why people are really upset about it.

I understood your point. I'm just saying that a person could argue it isn't really "damaging" to Reed because he'd still have his power, his intellect, he'd still lead the FF, he'd still have his friends and be a father to his kids.

What I'm saying is we can't simply use the arguments of: "but it doesn't damage the character" or "but it happens with people of this orientation" as a way to logically justify the change.

Queer-coding is also a poor argument.

If it's coded it's implied. It's not factual. It's an interpretation by definition.

What bothers some people (some are simply bigots) is that you need to get the interpretation that a certain situation was queer-coding and use it to interpret otherwise factual situations differently. Bobby didn't have many significant relationships with women, but he had them. He was attracted to them and he fell in love with them. Those things are not coded. They're factual. And you need to read them as his way of coping with his frustration of being closet for it to make sense.

Yes. He's gay now and it's not going to change. But it doesn't mean it should happen again.

[Omega Alpha]

If this was anywhere near true, Axel would have said they had long planned to do this but never had the right time or story until Bendis coincidentally decided to do it.

Nonsense- first of all, most of those were long before Alonso took over, and at least in some cases against editorial policy, like the Cloud thing when Shooter was in charge. Second, you can't spend years denying there are hints and subtext that Bobby is gay, but when that is finally made clear, say there was never anything there and Iceman being outed is a complete coincidence. You're just too proud to admit you were wrong.

[marhawkman]

Ok but I would understand fan outrage if Reed came out as gay because being with Sue has been a huge part of his character since his inception. They’re probably the highest profile married couple in comics besides Clark and Lois.

I’m not arguing that Bobby “needed” to be gay, but he is now. Period. I’m personally trying to understand why people are really upset about it.

Well... you like the change.... for your own reasons. However, can you explain how it's a good thing outside of that? Yeah "How does it make the character better?" but with none of the "it's good because representation" arguments.

For reasons that have already been stated, I think it makes his story worse.