Your Unpopular/Controversial Opinions on the X-Universe

[Hizashi]

I agree, I think it's just a sensitive subject matter. I guess when it comes down to characterization I view sexuality and personality traits in two completely different categories. If a friend came out to me even if I was a little surprised my relationship to that person wouldn't shift. They may be dating different people now and show a bit more confidence but everything else is the same. Now, if a friend of mine started exhibiting completely different personality traits (plug in any example of a comic book character randomly going crazy for the sake of the plot), I'd question them way more.

Of course this is a simplified version of the situation. If a friend that was married for 30 years (again the Reed example) came out I'd probably have a couple extra follow-up questions. I know people think about this differently but I really can't find many examples of Bobby's personality changing because his sexuality did (though Duggan does like to throw random gay stereotypes at him, but that's a whole different problem).

That's true, and thank you. Some people express their personality with/through their sexuality, some don't, and both approaches are used with characters. I guess the question is, which one was Bobby?

If we want to talk about real world experiences, I've had three people come out to me specifically. First, that's an incredible experience, because that meant that they trusted me a great deal. With two of them, I knew before they told me, they were clearly struggling with something and I could make an educated guess because I knew them; with the third, I was genuinely shocked, I didn't see a hint of it. I have firsthand experience with this, limited though it may be.

I am not coming to this issue with the idea that tackling this narrative shouldn't be done or that it is outright bad that it was done to Bobby, but I think we dismiss the method and motive too easily. Marvel didn't craft a story that handled this topic with care, they stumbled into it after a few writers and a portion of the fanbase did all of the work, and I think that as a result, there's a portion of the fans who are and will remain unsatisfied with the development. To then blame those fans for Marvel's ineptitude is unfair in my opinion.

[davetvs]

You’re painting with too broad of a brush here. Also a person can dislike the direction a character takes and not be “phobic” to whatever said direction is. Like others said to call anyone who doesn’t like Bobby’s coming out, even if they only feel it’s due to poor writing, homophobic it’s a step too far. Not liking a narrative change is not the same thing as not liking a person’s sexuality. If a person says “I don’t like Bobby because he’s gay” sure that’s homophobic, if a person says “ I don’t like how Marvel made Bobby gay,”. I think that’s a creative judgment not homophobia. To you’re credit you did give allowance for the way it happened, which I personally think was handled terribly, but if that instance tainted a reader on the character that doesn’t automatically make them a bigot. Hell they could be upset with the fact Jean outed Bobby and they just can’t get past that violation of personal space.

From a personal stand point I never picked up on the subtext but I wasn’t the intended audience either. The first time it even hit my radar was when I started coming to discussion boards and people would point out the subtext. I see it now but it had to be shown to me by those looking for it first, at that may not be the case for everyone, that’s just my perspective.

I think too often now discussions become an entire black and white debate when there is honestly usually a lot of gray area that gets tossed aside because it doesn’t fit either argument.

I think if your argument is that the coming out wasn't written well, and/or made Jeen look like an invasive douchebag, you'd be right on both counts. I totally agree with both of those takes, for me though there's a big difference between "This wasn't done well, therefore it doesn't click with me" and "This doesn't make sense, the narrative does not support it, and it shouldn't have happened." One of those sounds valid, the other sounds bigoted. I remember reading Austen's run in the early 2000s and picking up on the subtext with the way he wrote Bobby's relationship with Northstar, before ever coming to boards and learning about the other dots you can connect from way earlier.

I'm not one of the fans who reads gay subtext into everything (ex. Illyana/Kitty or Cannonball/Sunspot), so with Iceman I'm always taken aback when people argue that there were no clues or that it came out of left field. It seems obvious, which is probably partially why it was done (I've never read any of Bendis' interviews on the subject, if he's done them, so not sure.)

[Hizashi]

But that still lands on that individual. It has no effect on Bobby being gay or not just like if a person came out midlife what another thinks of it but themselves does not matter. So it really doesn't matter, it is just a conversation for people to make themselves feel better which is cool but at the end of the day it doesn't do anything to bobby one way or the other it just changes people perception of him and whatever result that ends up being is still there personal problem as bobby is still gay.

I think you might be misunderstanding my argument - I'm not trying to insist that Bobby is straight, and I'm not even arguing about whether it was a good or bad decision. I'm talking about the methodology and motivation, and how it has caused the current discourse.

[Hizashi]

It's not bullshit. The conversation literally goes like this:

Person 1: I don't like that Iceman is gay.

Person 2: Why?

Person 1: The narrative didn't support it.

Person 2: Actually, there's been a lot of subtext with Iceman, going back decades.

Person 1: That evidence isn't strong enough for me, so I still have a problem.

Person 2: Okay, well, you know, men who live heterosexual lives come out as gay, many unexpectedly, in their mid 20s-30s (which is where we can assume the character is meant to be) all the time.

Person 1: I still have a problem with it.

That doesn't sound like homophobia to you? I also find your combativeness ironic considering how histrionic your posts about X-23 never being written to your exact specifications are. Perhaps you're just seeing evidence supporting specific characterization that the rest of us (and Marvel) aren't?

You want to say that the other side of this argument simply doesn't think the evidence is strong enough, and then argue about real world situations, but neither point is fair. That crucial subtext was sporadic, introduced piecemeal, in a format where we can see the character's inner monologue. It's not unreasonable that some readers would be displeased with this "subtext". Further, and more importantly in my opinion, is it a good thing that one writer could write in subtext (which would be contradictory at the earliest points), of any kind really, that is ignored and then picked up on and on, until it's just canonized? That is the question that most concerns me.

A closeted man who spent years acting out the straight life that he thought would make everything easier for himself and others coming to accept who he is a great story. I don't think that's actually the story that Marvel told with Bobby, rather it's what the fandom made it into; Marvel stumbled into it, and has left the heavy-lifting to the fans. I think that matters.

[jwatson]

I think you might be misunderstanding my argument - I'm not trying to insist that Bobby is straight, and I'm not even arguing about whether it was a good or bad decision. I'm talking about the methodology and motivation, and how it has caused the current discourse.

I don't think you have a problem with whether Bobby was gay or straight sometimes when i'm responding i compound a lot of idea from several posts in the same or similar vein so it wasn't pointed at anyone directly or any kind of accusation on how anyone felt about bobby being gay one way or the other. I was really just saying it literally doesn't matter what any of our reservation is for Bobby being gay, he is gay, so in that way his fans were very much confronted with an uncomfortable truth much like how someone may be in real life if their friend suddenly came out to them. Now it doesn't matter how Bobby became gay the fact of the matter is he is and now it's on the fans if they chose to embrace him or not. Bobby is still bobby, being straight didn't make Bobby The Iceman nor does being gay mean he will be a familiar iceman. I think his personality traits are what matters most and that to me is what defines a character. But i get it, people can't exactly decipher the writers so they decipher the material but unless they want to make it so they are in a position where they can be one of the voices that effect bobby's "written will" it really doesn't matter.

I mean one could also easily make the argument that a closeted man who had his teenage self live a life he never knew he wanted and then at some point getting those memories added a bit of liberation to him as we know all of the 05 got their past counterparts memories at some point. So it would almost seem weird if Bobby had no sort of interest in men at all as an adult when his younger self had a full on romance. It's like if you were tortured as a gay man bobby kind of got the cheat code. He was struggling with his closet identity and at some point came out and at some point got his younger self experiences and memories and probably got an ease and surety none of us could ever know save Cyclops and Jean who also got their memories back at some point.

It can go in circles either way but at the end of the day the why or how or how sloppily he became gay doesn't matter because that happens every day in real life and far more sloppily where far more people end up in a situation. at least bobby was single some would say. But at the end of the day does it really matter how we become who we are if we come about it honestly. This is bobby honest, the writers were sloppy yes, but ok. People sloppy.

[Hizashi]

You’re painting with too broad of a brush here. Also a person can dislike the direction a character takes and not be “phobic” to whatever said direction is. Like others said to call anyone who doesn’t like Bobby’s coming out, even if they only feel it’s due to poor writing, homophobic it’s a step too far. Not liking a narrative change is not the same thing as not liking a person’s sexuality. If a person says “I don’t like Bobby because he’s gay” sure that’s homophobic, if a person says “ I don’t like how Marvel made Bobby gay,”. I think that’s a creative judgment not homophobia. To you’re credit you did give allowance for the way it happened, which I personally think was handled terribly, but if that instance tainted a reader on the character that doesn’t automatically make them a bigot. Hell they could be upset with the fact Jean outed Bobby and they just can’t get past that violation of personal space.

From a personal stand point I never picked up on the subtext but I wasn’t the intended audience either. The first time it even hit my radar was when I started coming to discussion boards and people would point out the subtext. I see it now but it had to be shown to me by those looking for it first, at that may not be the case for everyone, that’s just my perspective.

I think too often now discussions become an entire black and white debate when there is honestly usually a lot of gray area that gets tossed aside because it doesn’t fit either argument.

All excellent points, and the Jeen thing also doubles as another example of why I think TP is abused too easily in Marvel.

[Chris0013]

You’re painting with too broad of a brush here. Also a person can dislike the direction a character takes and not be “phobic” to whatever said direction is. Like others said to call anyone who doesn’t like Bobby’s coming out, even if they only feel it’s due to poor writing, homophobic it’s a step too far. Not liking a narrative change is not the same thing as not liking a person’s sexuality. If a person says “I don’t like Bobby because he’s gay” sure that’s homophobic, if a person says “ I don’t like how Marvel made Bobby gay,”. I think that’s a creative judgment not homophobia. To you’re credit you did give allowance for the way it happened, which I personally think was handled terribly, but if that instance tainted a reader on the character that doesn’t automatically make them a bigot. Hell they could be upset with the fact Jean outed Bobby and they just can’t get past that violation of personal space.

From a personal stand point I never picked up on the subtext but I wasn’t the intended audience either. The first time it even hit my radar was when I started coming to discussion boards and people would point out the subtext. I see it now but it had to be shown to me by those looking for it first, at that may not be the case for everyone, that’s just my perspective.

I think too often now discussions become an entire black and white debate when there is honestly usually a lot of gray area that gets tossed aside because it doesn’t fit either argument.

Exactly...thank you. I am not against diverse characters being created and promoted...I am against diverse characters being created and promoted at the expense of legacy characters.

[jwatson]

Which now my own post has me wondering if Angel remembers his relationship with Laura from All New Wolverine. I mean he should. But they do a good job of hiding it. It should stay that way.

[Hizashi]

I don't think you have a problem with whether Bobby was gay or straight sometimes when i'm responding i compound a lot of idea from several posts in the same or similar vein so it wasn't pointed at anyone directly or any kind of accusation on how anyone felt about bobby being gay one way or the other. I was really just saying it literally doesn't matter what any of our reservation is for Bobby being gay, he is gay, so in that way his fans were very much confronted with an uncomfortable truth much like how someone may be in real life if their friend suddenly came out to them. Now it doesn't matter how Bobby became gay the fact of the matter is he is and now it's on the fans if they chose to embrace him or not. Bobby is still bobby, being straight didn't make Bobby The Iceman nor does being gay mean he will be a familiar iceman. I think his personality traits are what matters most and that to me is what defines a character. But i get it, people can't exactly decipher the writers so they decipher the material but unless they want to make it so they are in a position where they can be one of the voices that effect bobby's "written will" it really doesn't matter.

I mean one could also easily make the argument that a closeted man who had his teenage self live a life he never knew he wanted and then at some point getting those memories added a bit of liberation to him as we know all of the 05 got their past counterparts memories at some point. So it would almost seem weird if Bobby had no sort of interest in men at all as an adult when his younger self had a full on romance. It's like if you were tortured as a gay man bobby kind of got the cheat code. He was struggling with his closet identity and at some point came out and at some point got his younger self experiences and memories and probably got an ease and surety none of us could ever know save Cyclops and Jean who also got their memories back at some point.

It can go in circles either way but at the end of the day the why or how or how sloppily he became gay doesn't matter because that happens every day in real life and far more sloppily where far more people end up in a situation. at least bobby was single some would say. But at the end of the day does it really matter how we become who we are if we come about it honestly. This is bobby honest, the writers were sloppy yes, but ok. People sloppy.

Thanks for clearing that up. I think that's interesting, that some fans who were really attached to the character might be struggling with the change because of that.

My problem with the real world argument is that Bobby is a fictional character and it's incumbent on the writers and editors to sell narrative changes, especially if it's gonna surprise a portion of the readership. On the track of conversation we're at, I understand that Bobby is gay and I don't intend to argue that he shouldn't be, I understand what you're saying and that conversation is pretty much done. On the other track of conversation, method and motivation deserves some attention I think.

Which now my own post has me wondering if Angel remembers his relationship with Laura from All New Wolverine. I mean he should. But they do a good job of hiding it. It should stay that way.

haha, let's just forget the O5.

[Chris0013]

Which now my own post has me wondering if Angel remembers his relationship with Laura from All New Wolverine. I mean he should. But they do a good job of hiding it. It should stay that way.

Well...Scott remembers his 'other' team The Champions.

[jwatson]

Thanks for clearing that up. I think that's interesting, that some fans who were really attached to the character might be struggling with the change because of that.

My problem with the real world argument is that Bobby is a fictional character and it's incumbent on the writers and editors to sell narrative changes, especially if it's gonna surprise a portion of the readership. On the track of conversation we're at, I understand that Bobby is gay and I don't intend to argue that he shouldn't be, I understand what you're saying and that conversation is pretty much done. On the other track of conversation, method and motivation deserves some attention I think.



haha, let's just forget the O5.

People have spent a lot of time with bobby, as a previous poster said we see more of the lives of a comic character than we see of our neighbors etc but still there is what we see, what we want to see and what we just don't see but there is some validity to it if one person sees it. Whether it is reinforced or not is another thing. So i get that on a level if you've seen what you think was all of this character existence that a person may be shocked and feel some kind of way but our job is not to put it on that person if we are uncomfortable or just flat out don't understand. But if it devolves into well "i didn't see what you saw in that scene" but someone else is saying they did see it so motivation becomes a lowkey accusation on either side and then people end up feeling like they are being called something they are not. Method is a far more valid factor but then that teeters on judging writers we know nothing about and their interpretation of scenes we may have personally seen differently which basically just becomes viewpoints on why we think someone else is or was "made" to be gay. And at the end it just ends up not mattering. JMO

[Rift]

Which now my own post has me wondering if Angel remembers his relationship with Laura from All New Wolverine. I mean he should. But they do a good job of hiding it. It should stay that way.

Judging by how Laura treated him while they were still dating, I don't think even she remembers it.

[marhawkman]

I think if your argument is that the coming out wasn't written well, and/or made Jeen look like an invasive douchebag, you'd be right on both counts. I totally agree with both of those takes, for me though there's a big difference between "This wasn't done well, therefore it doesn't click with me" and "This doesn't make sense, the narrative does not support it, and it shouldn't have happened." One of those sounds valid, the other sounds bigoted. I remember reading Austen's run in the early 2000s and picking up on the subtext with the way he wrote Bobby's relationship with Northstar, before ever coming to boards and learning about the other dots you can connect from way earlier.

I'm not one of the fans who reads gay subtext into everything (ex. Illyana/Kitty or Cannonball/Sunspot), so with Iceman I'm always taken aback when people argue that there were no clues or that it came out of left field. It seems obvious, which is probably partially why it was done (I've never read any of Bendis' interviews on the subject, if he's done them, so not sure.)

My problem with the "subtext" thing is that it's subjective, and.... prone to interpretation. And as people have pointed out.... seemingly the writers interpreted things differently from each other.

[Ambaryerno]

Judging by how Laura treated him while they were still dating, I don't think even she remembers it.

Considering how Warren treated HER I can’t see why she’d want to.

[Rift]

Considering how Warren treated HER I can’t see why she’d want to.

To be honest, I don't even remember how he treated her. I only remember how he was so heavily ignored in her solo, and Tom Taylor just went "she marries Julian in this possible future" at the end of the book.