Your Unpopular/Controversial Opinions on the X-Universe

[king of hybrids]

I’m sure it’ll probably play a role in Knights of X (oh god help us), but the reveal in Black Knight/X-Men on its own feels kind of pointless; like it’s weregild for the X-Men taking an L to the big bad

[jwatson]

remind me to never be lazy and google this thread again. ... posted in the wrong place originally.

I am seriously starting to wonder if marvel fans on the other side really read xbooks. I mean i know we get accused of it all the time as x-fans but in universe rosenburg run was literally murder porn for mutant haters (which i get it, in hindsight it needed to be as heinous as it was minus certain things that hit a little too personal for some and understandly) But the mutants were dwindled down to just a few in universe and the others were in a mutant utopia so got to see what community among mutants could be like so of course it makes sense the two would reconcile in someway as they kept their memories of Age of X-man timeline so i can't for the life of me figure out where all this "out the blue" and "how could they stuff" is coming from. It's like right there in the arcs before the 6 month gap. lmao. and then it's said mutants rely too heavily on being oppressed, but somehow they are wanted to go back into a state in which they could be more easily oppressed.

[marhawkman]

remind me to never be lazy and google this thread again. ... posted in the wrong place originally.

I am seriously starting to wonder if marvel fans on the other side really read xbooks. I mean i know we get accused of it all the time as x-fans but in universe rosenburg run was literally murder porn for mutant haters (which i get it, in hindsight it needed to be as heinous as it was minus certain things that hit a little too personal for some and understandly) But the mutants were dwindled down to just a few in universe and the others were in a mutant utopia so got to see what community among mutants could be like so of course it makes sense the two would reconcile in someway as they kept their memories of Age of X-man timeline so i can't for the life of me figure out where all this "out the blue" and "how could they stuff" is coming from. It's like right there in the arcs before the 6 month gap. lmao. and then it's said mutants rely too heavily on being oppressed, but somehow they are wanted to go back into a state in which they could be more easily oppressed.

When was the idea of "Mutant culture" first explored though? Pretty sure that got started long ago with the Morlocks and Acolytes.

[BobbysWorld]

Mutant culture has definitely been explored in the comics for decades though I think the original Morlocks might be the first real instance of it being explored in depth in the comics from a reader perspective.

In general though like I feel like there's this willful obtuseness about the fact that culture doesn't have to be just an ethnicity based thing, but can be communally based as well, and all you need as a foundation for a shared culture is common responses to shared histories and life experiences? The thing about mutant culture is there's no singular mutant culture but there have been DOZENS of mutant cultures......District X had distinct cultural elements for its community, like you said the Morlocks and Acolytes had cultures on smaller scales, places like Genosha, Utopia, etc, they were all developing cultures unique to themselves when they were destroyed, and then there are the many mutant offshoots like the Neo who had their own distinct cultures......not to mention past mutant civilizations like Okkara or even before that we had the ancient mutant civilizations of angelic and demonic mutants talked about in Austen's admittedly terrible run, lmao, but its not like they didn't exist.....And then let's not forget all the cultures that have arisen via immortal mutants cultivating communities of mutants like Clan Akkaba, the Thieves Guild, etc.

And Gene Nation arose out of a distinct mutant culture that grew up on The Hill, and there were many 'tribes' of Morlocks scattered around the world like the Chicago Morlocks and the London Morlocks, like the list goes on and on. Mutant culture is absolutely nothing new, it even predates Morrison's focus on the concept by like, a wide margin, and every time a writer like Remender comes along and tries to make a big deal via a mutant mouthpiece like Havok about how there's no mutant culture its like you have such a narrow view of what constitutes culture and also why do you want so badly to debunk the idea that mutants have banded together based on their shared experiences and struggles in the past and built....culture out of this? Like people go so hard trying to discount that the cultural elements we've seen to mutant communities aren't cultural and its like.....huh.

[marhawkman]

Mutant culture has definitely been explored in the comics for decades though I think the original Morlocks might be the first real instance of it being explored in depth in the comics from a reader perspective.

In general though like I feel like there's this willful obtuseness about the fact that culture doesn't have to be just an ethnicity based thing, but can be communally based as well, and all you need as a foundation for a shared culture is common responses to shared histories and life experiences? The thing about mutant culture is there's no singular mutant culture but there have been DOZENS of mutant cultures......District X had distinct cultural elements for its community, like you said the Morlocks and Acolytes had cultures on smaller scales, places like Genosha, Utopia, etc, they were all developing cultures unique to themselves when they were destroyed, and then there are the many mutant offshoots like the Neo who had their own distinct cultures......not to mention past mutant civilizations like Okkara or even before that we had the ancient mutant civilizations of angelic and demonic mutants talked about in Austen's admittedly terrible run, lmao, but its not like they didn't exist.....And then let's not forget all the cultures that have arisen via immortal mutants cultivating communities of mutants like Clan Akkaba, the Thieves Guild, etc.

And Gene Nation arose out of a distinct mutant culture that grew up on The Hill, and there were many 'tribes' of Morlocks scattered around the world like the Chicago Morlocks and the London Morlocks, like the list goes on and on. Mutant culture is absolutely nothing new, it even predates Morrison's focus on the concept by like, a wide margin, and every time a writer like Remender comes along and tries to make a big deal via a mutant mouthpiece like Havok about how there's no mutant culture its like you have such a narrow view of what constitutes culture and also why do you want so badly to debunk the idea that mutants have banded together based on their shared experiences and struggles in the past and built....culture out of this? Like people go so hard trying to discount that the cultural elements we've seen to mutant communities aren't cultural and its like.....huh.

OOhhh... forgot a few of those. Yeah the list gets LONG when you look at the entire history.

[Cyberstrike]

OK you asked for it: Peter David's runs on X-Factor are the best stories with any of the various X-teams/mutants ever written, they are way better than Claremont and all the rest.

[Grunty]

Mutant culture has definitely been explored in the comics for decades though I think the original Morlocks might be the first real instance of it being explored in depth in the comics from a reader perspective.

In general though like I feel like there's this willful obtuseness about the fact that culture doesn't have to be just an ethnicity based thing, but can be communally based as well, and all you need as a foundation for a shared culture is common responses to shared histories and life experiences? The thing about mutant culture is there's no singular mutant culture but there have been DOZENS of mutant cultures......District X had distinct cultural elements for its community, like you said the Morlocks and Acolytes had cultures on smaller scales, places like Genosha, Utopia, etc, they were all developing cultures unique to themselves when they were destroyed, and then there are the many mutant offshoots like the Neo who had their own distinct cultures......not to mention past mutant civilizations like Okkara or even before that we had the ancient mutant civilizations of angelic and demonic mutants talked about in Austen's admittedly terrible run, lmao, but its not like they didn't exist.....And then let's not forget all the cultures that have arisen via immortal mutants cultivating communities of mutants like Clan Akkaba, the Thieves Guild, etc.

And Gene Nation arose out of a distinct mutant culture that grew up on The Hill, and there were many 'tribes' of Morlocks scattered around the world like the Chicago Morlocks and the London Morlocks, like the list goes on and on. Mutant culture is absolutely nothing new, it even predates Morrison's focus on the concept by like, a wide margin, and every time a writer like Remender comes along and tries to make a big deal via a mutant mouthpiece like Havok about how there's no mutant culture its like you have such a narrow view of what constitutes culture and also why do you want so badly to debunk the idea that mutants have banded together based on their shared experiences and struggles in the past and built....culture out of this? Like people go so hard trying to discount that the cultural elements we've seen to mutant communities aren't cultural and its like.....huh.

I think it should be noted that these are often just surface level elements, to simplify the introduction of these groups, so they can quickly fit into the roles the writer requires for them. These traits in turn are often based on generic arche- and stereotypes the readers will likely allready be familiar with from other stories and settings.

Truely unique, unusual and functional fictional cultures and societies take a lot of effort to create and present without boring the audience with too much exposition and side tracking.

Like one could sum up the New York Morlocks as just being "creepy tribal people with weird rituals and believes, or the Acolytes as military extremist group following the radical ideology of a charismatic leader figure (Magneto/Exodus), the Hellfireclub and Clan Akkaba as ancient well connected secret societies trying to rule the world from the shadows and the Arraki as hyborian age rejects with super powers.

Though that being said, that's also how it works in most works of science fiction like Star Trek. So on the other hand what works for Klingons, Ferengi and Vulcans can work for mutants too.

Also what you wrote reflects one reason i'm not particulary hyped or happy about the Krakoa status quo.
Because not only do i feel like Hickman's narrative and some of the characterization by the other initial writers made it sound like the mutants of Krakoa now had THE fully fleshed out universal "mutant culture", without actualy providing much example of it beyond hollow cultural posturing, implied existance and moments intentionaly designed to feel unsettling, but the whole status quo is in my opinion actively hindering the presentation and creation of elements of shared mutant culture traits.

Because when everyone is herded into the same place and expressing the same sentiment, doing the same thing, living in the same environment, claiming to be all united and following the same ideology and habbits, it actualy reduces the number of different groups that the heros could come in contact with and have to learn more about for the sake of conflict resolution or team work, therefor reducing the amount of "mutant culture" instead of expanding it.

Heck, as much as i dismiss the Arraki as not being long for this world, i'm perplexed they have done so little to flesh them out, while still seemingly only focusing on Krakoa and it's implied yet vague mutant culture.

For example i find it quite interesting that the Arraki are actualy not using "mutant names" (super hero code names), despite X-men #7 making a big deal out of it. Instead they use what could be called a regular first name and then simply add a title to it. Like Bei of the Bloodmone, Khora of the burning heart, Tarn the uncaring, etc.
And these are Apocalypse's own people, the guy who made the mutant name a big deal. So did they always use this naming system and Apocalypse himself is the odd man out, or did it develop in his absence.

Likewise the trend of many Acolytes using their given names instead of descriptive code names actualy made them stand out, with only Cortez still following this system because of personal pride. Which in spite of being a scumbag, actualy makes him the notable last hold out of what is seemingly a dead cultural movement among the mutants.

Which goes to show that more is allready created via seperation from each other than by proclaiming a universal uniqueness from "humans" without actualy delivering much remark or memorable.

Especialy since, it's far easier to create a shared cultural identity for a group, when there are many different subcultures to be explored. Because a collection of different groups, with shared elements, makes it easier to see what these shared elements are.

[Outburstz]

All efforts to make mutant culture by Hickmen got a bunch of complaints by these fans calling Krakoa a cult. So they scrubbed it all in order to just basically make it a cool vacation spot. So the lack of mutant culture is the fans fault.

[BobbysWorld]

I mean I'd definitely disagree with that. I do agree with Grunty about Hickman's approach to mutant culture being very surface-level and othering with no real depth or sense of community....but my big thing is for all that Hickman jumpstarted this era, he's not the only one responsible for it and there are a number of other X-writers who ARE trying to actually do stuff with culture and community building that isn't based just on portraying mutants as alien and otherworldly. The execution and effectiveness of that varies dramatically, but I don't think Ayala, Ewing, Spurrier, Williams, etc, are remotely approaching Krakoa from the same direction Hickman was.

And so I'm kinda eh about how quick people in general are to sum the current era up just by his take on things when I don't think its remotely a coincidence that he left the books with the current era intact and never ended up tearing down stuff where he initially seeded flaws that were aimed at making a kind of morality fable about nationalism with this deliberately otherworldly society.....because UNLIKE him, the vast majority of current X-writers who helped flesh out this era are members of marginalized communities who were a lot more interested in making an empowered mutant society actually WORK and be to the benefit of its members rather than, well, a morality fable.

While the X-books definitely could benefit from more writers of color than just Ayala and the as yet unnamed Alyssa Wong book IMO, Williams, Gillen, Orlando, Ewing, Ayala are all LGBTQ+ and that I think is key when it comes to differing takes on the mutant concept as a whole. I'd argue that Grunty is 100% right about how many of the previous looks at mutant culture have been very surface level and without much to say, but I think that has less to do with the concepts and more about who's writing them.

I think the X-books and fandom have always had a kind of split identity because they appeal to different groups on extremely different levels. I think there's a lot of white, cis, straight fans and writers who identify with the X-Men as outsiders and see them as an alienation metaphor that speaks to them on the grounds of like, they felt like they never fit in growing up. But then at the exact same time, there's a lot of marginalized fans who identify with the X-Men as marginalization metaphors and gravitate to them because of the way the X-Men always acted as a found family and fortified each other against people hating them for their shared traits.

Thing is though, there's gonna be a lot of SUPERFICIAL overlap in those two different perspectives when it comes to stories about outsiders being shunned.....but there's not a lot of overlap beyond that as those perspectives tend to be entirely at cross purposes. People who lean INTO the alienation metaphor are more likely to approach the X-Men concept and characters from an extremely individualistic stance whereas people who lean into the marginalization metaphor are more likely to approach the X-Men concept and characters from a stance rooted in the ideas of community and solidarity.

And I think this current era has brought those distinctions front and center without really clarifying that the distinctions exist. And Hickman to me falls very much into the camp of writer who approaches the concept from a mutants-as-alienated perspective, and he basically just dialed that up to extremes with his take.....deliberately making his mutant society feel deliberately alien to humanity and many of them celebrating that, willfully uplifting themselves as Other. But there's a lot of other writers who are putting just as much work (and more) into making the more alien components of Hickman's architecture more humanized because they don't come to the books or the characters seeking that they be willfully separate from the rest of humanity.....simply safe and protected and given the space to celebrate and uplift the parts of their identity that are unique to them and they've historically been ostracized for, but not simply BECAUSE these traits are 'Other' and for no other reason.

[Baron of Faltine]

All efforts to make mutant culture by Hickmen got a bunch of complaints by these fans calling Krakoa a cult. So they scrubbed it all in order to just basically make it a cool vacation spot. So the lack of mutant culture is the fans fault.

In part you are right(big part 80% I think) Hickman did a good attempt to see how a new culture can develop (something any writer worth its salt toy with at some point, be it Sci fi alien culture, primitive culture, fantasy, or just weird sub-culture. Hell even texts chainsaw massacre is interesting look on isolated rural culture vs. urban counter culture) but it is something that took time(LoTR and Sylmarillion were written in years! Many years!) And nowadays comic book fans have little patience. Add to this that he clearly had planned some future development about the "growing pain" of Krakoa culture(example is Nightcrawler faith, and like him others...how they deal with this theoretical immortality who skip about the whole soul thing...that is factual, real, objective we can touch it really thing in MU) but did ot had the time time finish it

[Zelena]

I think readers need characters they can relate with… If an author makes the characters too alien… it’s a bit boring.

The strength of the X-men was that, despite their marvelous powers, they were very human…

[Rev9]

It seems like on the X-Boards everyone is always expressing their "controversial" opinions... but if everybody plays by the rules and doesn't attack anyone for what they've said in this thread then I guess I'll bite.

I think Storm should get killed-off or at the very least retire for a while. She's become inept as a leader and a sellout who's going to be defending the very people who are pro-longing the genocide against mutants. If what Misty Knight told Sam Wilson is true and there's a member of the X-Men who is under the manipulation of Hydra then I hope it's Storm.

Attachment 37290

What's with the plot teases having no payoff these days? Cyke is ready to go to war with QC coz his own teammate wiped Ulrich's mind..is that where we are headed?

[marhawkman]

I think readers need characters they can relate with… If an author makes the characters too alien… it’s a bit boring.

The strength of the X-men was that, despite their marvelous powers, they were very human…

Yeah, the specific metaphor for the reason they don't fit in with society isn't as important as THAT it exists. Life sucks, and there's many kinds of reasons for why life sucks, why stick to only one of them when writing?

[Baron of Faltine]

I think readers need characters they can relate with… If an author makes the characters too alien… it’s a bit boring.

The strength of the X-men was that, despite their marvelous powers, they were very human…

I add that the look, appearance or power has nothing to do with the relatability
The thing is much more sympathetic than Mr Fantastic
Nightcrawler is the most human of the X-men
On dc side, people like Superman because he is very very human and kind of adorable(remove Clark Kent and you get just an evil Superman, at this point we all got it, please stop keeping repeating that)
So yes, writer ha do keep the hero human, expecially his behaviour, otherwise you are left with just a powerset/skill-set and little else.

[Baron of Faltine]

Yeah, the specific metaphor for the reason they don't fit in with society isn't as important as THAT it exists. Life sucks, and there's many kinds of reasons for why life sucks, why stick to only one of them when writing?

Exactly. I am waiting for soft or hard civil war, that will soon or later happeni Krakoa
So far they were smart and managed to adverto or delay it, but for how long?