Your Unpopular/Controversial Opinions on the X-Universe

[Force de Phenix]

I think readers need characters they can relate with… If an author makes the characters too alien… it’s a bit boring.

The strength of the X-men was that, despite their marvelous powers, they were very human…

The X-Men depended too much on the "we're persecuted" theme since they did Days of Future past in the 80's. Then Legacy Virus, E for Extinction, House of M, etc. They've become the opposite of what people grew to like. People even attacked the inhumans for adopting this theme because "this only happens to mutants and it's their trademark." Now that they abandoned that trademark and adopted the inhumans' theme, it's okay.

And comic book readers don't like change that much. Some do and get on board. If this era was written during the All New All Different period, I wonder if fans would've been happy since everything Marvel did at that time was bad according to a lot of people, including the inclusion of obscure characters and the inclusion of diversity. I didn't mind this period, but when they returned to legacy characters, they did better with sales I think. People just panicked because they actually thought legacy characters weren't coming back. It was click-bait websites that fueled this too.

Here's a quote from The Guardian about the ANAD era:
But speaking at the Marvel retailer summit about the studio’s falling comic sales since October, David Gabriel told ICv2 that retailers had told him that fans were sticking to old favourites. “What we heard was that people didn’t want any more diversity,” he said. “They didn’t want female characters out there. That’s what we heard, whether we believe that or not.”

He added: “I don’t know that that’s really true, but that’s what we saw in sales … Any character that was diverse, any character that was new, our female characters, anything that was not a core Marvel character, people were turning their nose up.”

This is probably why newer mutants don't get bigger fanbases and fade away with time. Not even the writers see them as core characters. Especially if they aren't tied to legacy characters like X-23. And a lot of fans have their favorites and rarely stray from them.

[marhawkman]

Exactly. I am waiting for soft or hard civil war, that will soon or later happeni Krakoa
So far they were smart and managed to adverto or delay it, but for how long?

Yeah, It's been shown that Krakoa has internal divisions... that aren't fully happy with living together.

The X-Men depended too much on the "we're persecuted" theme since they did Days of Future past in the 80's. Then Legacy Virus, E for Extinction, House of M, etc. They've become the opposite of what people grew to like. People even attacked the inhumans for adopting this theme because "this only happens to mutants and it's their trademark." Now that they abandoned that trademark and adopted the inhumans' theme, it's okay.

And comic book readers don't like change that much. Some do and get on board. If this era was written during the All New All Different period, I wonder if fans would've been happy since everything Marvel did at that time was bad according to a lot of people, including the inclusion of obscure characters and the inclusion of diversity. I didn't mind this period, but when they returned to legacy characters, they did better with sales I think. People just panicked because they actually thought legacy characters weren't coming back. It was click-bait websites that fueled this too.

Here's a quote from The Guardian about the ANAD era:
But speaking at the Marvel retailer summit about the studio’s falling comic sales since October, David Gabriel told ICv2 that retailers had told him that fans were sticking to old favourites. “What we heard was that people didn’t want any more diversity,” he said. “They didn’t want female characters out there. That’s what we heard, whether we believe that or not.”

He added: “I don’t know that that’s really true, but that’s what we saw in sales … Any character that was diverse, any character that was new, our female characters, anything that was not a core Marvel character, people were turning their nose up.”

This is probably why newer mutants don't get bigger fanbases and fade away with time. Not even the writers see them as core characters. Especially if they aren't tied to legacy characters like X-23. And a lot of fans have their favorites and rarely stray from them.

Yeah, the sad reality is that sales numbers are incredibly fickle, and new books might get ignored for any of several reasons, but those reasons are less likely for old characters.

[Grunty]

Yeah, It's been shown that Krakoa has internal divisions... that aren't fully happy with living together.

As mentioned before, i think a degree of division is actualy good and healthy for the presentation of a group/community, especialy since it reflects a diversity and freedom of minds and reduces the risk of them appearing weirdly monolithic and one note.

However on the subject of civil wars, considering the people all gathered on Krakoa, the whole society really still has the potential to become a powder keg the more the "honeymoon phase" of everyone sitting in the same place with all the benefits is over and old grudges, ideologies, character weakness and lusts will kick in again.

The fact that these people live among what are basicly impressionable (or otherwise put personality free) civilians also means that they might very well gather more followers among them. Which would create quite an issue for the established system of law, since they might be far too many throw into the pit anymore and as they boasted in HOX/POX they have no prisons and criminal mutants can't be allowed in the "human world".

And rule of drama and the need for more interesting (including return of established ones) villains means the ticking time bomb of current Krakoa can never be switched off unless the majority of mutant villains is gone again, which will mean they are back in the wider world requiring constant attention and vigilance again.

So either a civil war which will throw the foundation of Krakoa into question or a new series of external conflicts which change the status quo of mutants again.

The X-Men depended too much on the "we're persecuted" theme since they did Days of Future past in the 80's. Then Legacy Virus, E for Extinction, House of M, etc. They've become the opposite of what people grew to like. People even attacked the inhumans for adopting this theme because "this only happens to mutants and it's their trademark." Now that they abandoned that trademark and adopted the inhumans' theme, it's okay.

And comic book readers don't like change that much. Some do and get on board. If this era was written during the All New All Different period, I wonder if fans would've been happy since everything Marvel did at that time was bad according to a lot of people, including the inclusion of obscure characters and the inclusion of diversity. I didn't mind this period, but when they returned to legacy characters, they did better with sales I think. People just panicked because they actually thought legacy characters weren't coming back. It was click-bait websites that fueled this too.

(...)

This is probably why newer mutants don't get bigger fanbases and fade away with time. Not even the writers see them as core characters. Especially if they aren't tied to legacy characters like X-23. And a lot of fans have their favorites and rarely stray from them.

I don't think we can really say "comicbook readers" don't like change. Considering the medium of comics is extremely widespread and diverse with the readership equaly so (and spread out around the world).

If we however talk about the readership of the super hero comics of Marvel and DC, then they indeed seem to have a large number of people who are either less interest in new things or at least hard to convince without proper care and high quality (while ironicaly having accepted lowered qualities of comics as long as their favorits are staring in it).

And that brings us back to the old issue of Marvel having failed to foster a new readership, by depending far too much on an established one that is in turn too dedicated to what they allready have and love. The vicious cycle.

As for the over dependency on the "we are persecuted" theme. One interesting complaint i read about the X-men, was that by constantly having mutants be victims of big evil actions (mass murder, mass persecution, slavery, forced to live in slums, etc.) it leaves out the more nuanced and lower level issues such people suffer. So the minority angle also seems to have lost it's luster some because of how over the top and one sided it has become.

[Kingdom X]

As mentioned before, i think a degree of division is actualy good and healthy for the presentation of a group/community, especialy since it reflects a diversity and freedom of minds and reduces the risk of them appearing weirdly monolithic and one note.

However on the subject of civil wars, considering the people all gathered on Krakoa, the whole society really still has the potential to become a powder keg the more the "honeymoon phase" of everyone sitting in the same place with all the benefits is over and old grudges, ideologies, character weakness and lusts will kick in again.

The fact that these people live among what are basicly impressionable (or otherwise put personality free) civilians also means that they might very well gather more followers among them. Which would create quite an issue for the established system of law, since they might be far too many throw into the pit anymore and as they boasted in HOX/POX they have no prisons and criminal mutants can't be allowed in the "human world".

And rule of drama and the need for more interesting (including return of established ones) villains means the ticking time bomb of current Krakoa can never be switched off unless the majority of mutant villains is gone again, which will mean they are back in the wider world requiring constant attention and vigilance again.

So either a civil war which will throw the foundation of Krakoa into question or a new series of external conflicts which change the status quo of mutants again.



I don't think we can really say "comicbook readers" don't like change. Considering the medium of comics is extremely widespread and diverse with the readership equaly so (and spread out around the world).

If we however talk about the readership of the super hero comics of Marvel and DC, then they indeed seem to have a large number of people who are either less interest in new things or at least hard to convince without proper care and high quality (while ironicaly having accepted lowered qualities of comics as long as their favorits are staring in it).

And that brings us back to the old issue of Marvel having failed to foster a new readership, by depending far too much on an established one that is in turn too dedicated to what they allready have and love. The vicious cycle.

As for the over dependency on the "we are persecuted" theme. One interesting complaint i read about the X-men, was that by constantly having mutants be victims of big evil actions (mass murder, mass persecution, slavery, forced to live in slums, etc.) it leaves out the more nuanced and lower level issues such people suffer. So the minority angle also seems to have lost it's luster some because of how over the top and one sided it has become.

I remember when Bendis' run was wrapping up, my big hope for the ANAD era was that we were going to see more integration among mutants while simultaneously tackling issues like tokenism, incarceration, appropriation etc. It would add a lot more nuance to the conversation and you could do stories where human "allies" aren't all good or all evil. Of course then we got hit with another extinction event, followed by runs built on empty nostalgia, and then our final extinction event pre-HOX/POX. So yeah by the time the Krakoan era came around I had given up hope for some nuance in the mutant persecution story and was just glad that we were getting mutants winning for once.

[Zelena]

The X-Men depended too much on the "we're persecuted" theme since they did Days of Future past in the 80's.

The X-men depended on… the issues you have read. My brother stopped buying X-men comics before Days of Future past when we were children. The X-men were never associated with fear and persecution to me.

It was fun and adventures. Of course, “we are not like the others” was present but it didn’t hinder the stories.

[Marvelfan1992]

wolverine should just be a solo character separate from the x-men

[Force de Phenix]

wolverine should just be a solo character separate from the x-men

Wolverine is like Batman, and the X-Men are like the Justice League. He's always had his own rogues gallery, comics and movies.

[rcaguy]

All efforts to make mutant culture by Hickmen got a bunch of complaints by these fans calling Krakoa a cult. So they scrubbed it all in order to just basically make it a cool vacation spot. So the lack of mutant culture is the fans fault.

Bullshit. If Pixie letting herself get talked into blowing her head off for giggles (which is something I doubt Hickman ever had in mind or foresaw coming) is your idea of mutant culture you shouldn't be surprised if no one going to support this sort of utter stupidity.

[Outburstz]

Bullshit. If Pixie letting herself get talked into blowing her head off for giggles (which is something I doubt Hickman ever had in mind or foresaw coming) is your idea mutant culture you shouldn't be surprised if no one going to support this sort of utter stupidity.

That was a bunch of kids doing stupid stuff that had nothing to do with culture. Have you seen the stupid internet challenges that have popped up over the years? Eating tie pods, Cinnamon challenge, knock out challenge, box crate challenge, etc

Since the mutants can't die the kids just started doing crazy death pranks.

[rcaguy]

That was a bunch of kids doing stupid stuff that had nothing to do with culture. Have you seen the stupid internet challenges that have popped up over the years? Eating tie pods, Cinnamon challenge, knock out challenge, box crate challenge, etc

Since the mutants can't die the kids just started doing crazy death pranks.

Marvel learned their lesson from the Xorn nonsense and basically stopped it before it could do any real damage.

[Marvelfan1992]

Wolverine is like Batman, and the X-Men are like the Justice League. He's always had his own rogues gallery, comics and movies.

yeah but i want wolverine just entirely cut off from the x-men

[Frobisher]

Wolverine is like Batman, and the X-Men are like the Justice League. He's always had his own rogues gallery, comics and movies.

Nah, being an X-Man is way more integral to Logan’s identity than The Justice Club is to Batman. His only appearance prior to Giant-Size was a guest character in The Hulk and he didn’t have the hairdo yet, didn’t have his iconic mask design, the healing factor, relationships, villains… very little of what he would come to be known for. X-Men made Logan.

[Saithor]

That was a bunch of kids doing stupid stuff that had nothing to do with culture. Have you seen the stupid internet challenges that have popped up over the years? Eating tie pods, Cinnamon challenge, knock out challenge, box crate challenge, etc

Since the mutants can't die the kids just started doing crazy death pranks.

….”No, this teenage girl committing suicide on panel is just crazy kids doing crazy kid things, nothing to see here.”

It was literally in the first issue of a book that was supposed to take a look at Krakoan society and how it interacted, and was one of the things that inspire Nightcrawler to decide to look into it all further. You might think it’s the Krakoa equivalent of a selfie, but the author did not.

[Outburstz]

….”No, this teenage girl committing suicide on panel is just crazy kids doing crazy kid things, nothing to see here.”

It was literally in the first issue of a book that was supposed to take a look at Krakoan society and how it interacted, and was one of the things that inspire Nightcrawler to decide to look into it all further. You might think it’s the Krakoa equivalent of a selfie, but the author did not.

There is a difference between the effects of Krakoa and Krakoa/mutant culture.

effects of Krakoa would include some kids killing themselves for fun, lots of down time, being able to travel where ever you want, free food

Mutant culture would be things like the Crucible, battle marks, language, Clothes, mutant magic, mutant music

One is a byproduct the other is a deliberate creation of customs

[Alan2099]

There is a difference between the effects of Krakoa and Krakoa/mutant culture.

effects of Krakoa would include some kids killing themselves for fun, lots of down time, being able to travel where ever you want, free food

Mutant culture would be things like the Crucible, battle marks, language, Clothes, mutant magic, mutant music

One is a byproduct the other is a deliberate creation of customs

I'm not seeing a difference.