Your Unpopular/Controversial Opinions on the X-Universe

[gonnagiveittoya]

How are they not coexisting?
Which actions have they taken "against" humanity?
Consent, is what they are no longer waiting for.

Didn't they refuse to help people evacuate during King in Black because they didn't want any mutants to get infected...which ended up happening anyways?

[Nicoclaws]

This is like the last vestige of classic Xavier before he got totally replaced by the Krakoa version. That there's not a trace of this in any issue after this is telling

Even Sinisterized, Xavier wept for humans.

[JB]

While some few (mainly villains) have taken the superior part of Homo Superior (as per Homo Erectus and Homo Sapien) to literal extremes its been very clear throughout its entire publication history that the X-Men and close affiliates and those mutants who just want to live a normal life in peace do not think or feel that way...in fact, being constantly hated, hounded, hunted, feared and killed, made them feel anything but superior.

And the notion that ALL these mutants are now going about lording their "superiority" over humans ie blaming the entire group for the actions of a very misguided few...is unequivocally wrong, and not what the X-Men as a franchise and the stories being told has ever been about, from inception to now.

Sad to say, somewhere along the line some readers lost the plot and either can't find their way back or are quite happy being lost.

Poking my head in here to say Sibz is right about everything.

[Fokken]

This is like the last vestige of classic Xavier before he got totally replaced by the Krakoa version. That there's not a trace of this in any issue after this is telling

After they murdered him.
Telling indeed.
Call me petty, I think I'd feel differently too.

Didn't they refuse to help people evacuate during King in Black because they didn't want any mutants to get infected...which ended up happening anyways?

Wow. This receipt.

[cranger]

Didn't they refuse to help people evacuate during King in Black because they didn't want any mutants to get infected...which ended up happening anyways?

The QC is a 'government' and like any other do stuff like that. There are way too many recent examples in RL (closing borders to prevent spread) to pin this on 'superiority'. It was also just one side of the argument, which lost and they found a solution.

[PolarIceFire]

Just a few clarifications.

Mutants, Inhumans, Atlanteans, etc., are all merely subspecies of humans & @the end of the day, just people.

It also should go without saying that none of them could possibly be monolithic in their beliefs and/or opinions.

Many in the X-office & by eXtension Marvel/Disney, I'm guessing, feel that the metaphor is flawed & in need of fine-tuning, @the very least.
Hence the rise of the machines/technology as the shared threat, now.

IIRC, Russian government agents assassinated Xavier. And they of course do not represent humanity as a whole, any more than the Sinisters or Beast do mutants.

Lastly, more & more I'm feeling the want all the time, to ask some fans: are we still talking about the X-Men here, or is there some personal projecting going on?

[ZuLuLu]

Didn't they refuse to help people evacuate during King in Black because they didn't want any mutants to get infected...which ended up happening anyways?

This had nothing to do with mutants acting against humanity it was about stopping the spread of the Symbiote infection. It was more dangerous to humans to have mutants possessed by the symbiote and under the control of Knull.

[BobbysWorld]

Lastly, more & more I'm feeling the want all the time, to ask some fans: are we still talking about the X-Men here, or is there some personal projecting going on?

Just to be clear, I have no idea who this is aimed at or what specifically its in regards to, so if my assumptions here as to what those are happen to be off-base, so be it. My following thoughts aren't rooted in just this particular post, but a common trend in how people react to conversations like this and various posters having these conversations.

As to the question 'is there projecting going on?' So what if there is? This entire debate is about the mutant metaphor and how it relates to real world oppression and discrimination. Ngl, it bugs when people act like there's something superior about disassociating one's real life experiences from stories that are meant to parallel specific elements of real life. That thing when people act like analysis of fiction AND peoples' reactions to it are supposed to exist in some abstract vacuum as though the fiction itself is not aimed at saying things about the human experience. Stories inform our experiences and how we interpret them, we can learn from stories. Our experiences and how we interpret them can inform stories.

Its a two-way street and trying to act like its not so as to cast shade on people who can be passionate about stories and what they say and HOW stories say it BECAUSE they have real life experiences that differ from people who for whatever reason, (be it personal choice, ideology or differing experiences), take a more distanced view of the conversation at hand....that's just confirmation bias that allows people to dismiss anyone who's more heated about a topic than they are - even if its because the topic is directly relevant to them in ways it might not be to others - as being too enflamed or biased to have a viewpoint worth acknowledging.

This is short-sighted because it overlooks the basic fact that even WITH bias born of personal stake being part of the equation....that often goes hand in hand with being the very REASON the people in question there often have a more directly informed viewpoint on the topic than dispassionate debaters who can AFFORD to have unemotional distance between themselves and the topic....because they have less personal stake involved.

Sorry not sorry to go off, but can we stop with the whole 'the superior viewpoints in any argument are the ones who treat the whole thing as clinical and objective' - especially when there IS no objectivity to be had in the entire conversation. Nobody is exempt from having a personal bias when it comes to discussions of marginalizations or oppressions, because even with the people who have limited personal experiences with it and thus think its not as big a deal or as worth getting as heated about as others make it out to be....that is STILL a form of implicit bias that colors their perception of discussions like this.

The viewpoint 'its not that deep' is directly linked to 'because in my experience its never been as deep as other people are treating it as.' This is STILL projection! Just from the opposite angle. Problem is, its too often upheld as NOT being projection or a person conflating their own personal experiences as being indicative of the entire topic....simply because people projecting from THIS particular angle are able to present as less personally invested....because their personal investment is rooted in less emotion-intensive history with the topic.

We see this used constantly to shut down what many black people have to say about antiblackness - because they're too heated on the topic, and this somehow makes them less worth listening to, even though the intensity of their feelings on the topic is directly linked to how much more informed they are on the topic than say, a white poster who's like 'society isn't as racist as you're making it out to be.' Its like lol and the white person is treated as the expert there because.....they sound calmer? Because they're definitely not projecting? Like....c'mon now. WHY are they able to sound calmer on the topic, and how is that viewpoint not just them projecting what they WANT to be true: that racism isn't as big a deal as people directly affected by it want even the people not affected by it to treat it as?

And this continues across the board. We see it with people using 'hmmm, methinks somebody's projecting' (with the implication being 'and thus their viewpoint should be taken with a grain of salt) when trans individuals try to speak to how harmful transphobic bills or celebrities are while cis individuals try and use their obvious passion about the topic of their own experiences with society to limit how much 'credibility' they give to the literal most informed people on the topic of....their own experiences with society.

Same with discussions of homophobia, sexism, ableism, etc, etc, etc.

And frankly, its ridiculous. By all means, moderate conversations and expect people to remain civil and not engage in personal insults, etc. But people CONSTANTLY engage in conversations like this and act like anyone daring to so much as suggest that they have a less nuanced perspective on highly charged social conversations like race relations....is the same thing as being called a racist or condemned as a bad person....or that anyone who seems more invested than self-appointed devil's advocates is diminishing their own credibility by simply displaying more emotion or making reference to personal experiences....

And isn't that just....projecting?

"I don't like that people aren't innately viewing me as how I view myself, a fully enlightened individual who has no opinions on social oppression that need further unpacking, and I am viewing this as an attack wherein people are calling me a racist and a bad person...."

That's neeeeeever actually people just projecting their own insecurities that maybe they're not actually as progressive or open-minded as they like to pride themselves on being?

Anyway, I'm still talking about the X-Men here AND I'm projecting personally. The two aren't mutually exclusive and the fact that a lot of my opinions and how I feel about them and voice them are rooted in my personal experiences growing up in a discriminatory society....does not mean that the things I say are any less credible or that I've spent any less time thinking them through because of it.

(And for the record, with as intense and heated as people get about the most trivial of topics on this board, with constant projection going unremarked upon when it comes to ship wars or people insisting upon their faves being better than everyone else's or why this one character they hate really sucks and everybody should agree....the question I'M always wanting to ask some fans is why does nobody blink at the heated intensity and projection present in so many of those 'discourses' but the second the conversation turns to something involving racism, ableism, real world oppression and social dynamics, etc.....NOW all of a sudden people need to only engage on it like they're delivering a TED talk or else they're just taking it too personally to possibly have anything worth hearing out?)

[gonnagiveittoya]

Even Sinisterized, Xavier wept for humans.

....he was literally personally murdering them and poisoning their air

[gonnagiveittoya]

This had nothing to do with mutants acting against humanity it was about stopping the spread of the Symbiote infection. It was more dangerous to humans to have mutants possessed by the symbiote and under the control of Knull.

But that...happened anyways. In fact I think it had already happened by then

[PolarIceFire]

... if my assumptions here as to what those are happen to be off-base, so be it. ....

Sorry not sorry...

They are, and same. Just calling out the overly simplistic rhetoric of humans BAD & mutated humans GOOD and/or vice versa/any variance thereof for what it is. That you took it so personally & jumped to conclusions (which seemingly stem from your own insecurities), is on you. There's 2 sides to every story, BW, and I'm an equal opportunity offender. That's how debates work, you have to be able to see both the pros & cons, not just one or the other.

[Nicoclaws]

....he was literally personally murdering them and poisoning their air

Yeah but you implied he didn't care. The fact that even pushed to total evil, he still has emotions should confirm that normalXavier still care about humanity and coexistence.

[cranger]

Yeah but you implied he didn't care. The fact that even pushed to total evil, he still has emotions should confirm that normalXavier still care about humanity and coexistence.

Yep. It is right in Inferno. He tells Magneto that once they "win" they would be so caring as to show mercy. Sometimes it seems like he cares, sometimes it just seems like he is too soft to go through with what needs to be done.

[Grunty]

Here's something from very early into the Krakoa era

Krakoa was definitely designed to have a cracked foundation, but there was still love behind it.

Argubaly the foundation isn't so much cracked as that everything is build on sand with explosive charges burried within. Meaning either the big red button is pressed or it gets slowly washed away by the tides.

But since all these important characters are also meant to outlast it, Xavier has to remain true to his identity, merely having been altered via Moira's manipulation towards being more willing to embrace her idea of this techno-organic utopia where mutants are willingly twisted towards parts of machines.

Yeah but you implied he didn't care. The fact that even pushed to total evil, he still has emotions should confirm that normalXavier still care about humanity and coexistence.

I recall Moira X in HOX/POX claimed he had a savior complex, implying he would never be willing to be the agressor towards the rest of humanity, hence switching to Magneto and afterwards to Apocalypse for her goals to win ahead of the Post Humans.

It even seems like she sold Xavier on the whole idea of creating Krakoa by making it seem like a more stronger version of the fortress nation he created in a previous life.

[marhawkman]

Controversial opinion:

I've irrationally hateloathedetest Allred's art from since way back when so I'll never ever read anything he's on regardless of how great the story. (I say irrational because I'm fully aware that his style isn't even subjectively bad in any way and it's very much like those retro Saturday morning cartoons which I still love and watch)

Fully understandable. I personally dislike it as well. It just... feels dirty somehow.