Your Unpopular/Controversial Opinions on the X-Universe

[jwatson]

It really doesn't make a difference. That's like saying Naruto stood no chance of becoming hokage because the villains would also have undefined levels of power he could never reach. I mean even asta has anti magic which in of itself is undefinable but objectively speaking IS the weakest power on a world based on magic but IS the strongest because of what it does in a world of magic which is undefinable just like naruto with kyuubi did and given good story it adds depth or can because it always gives you a place to go there when you are elevating the stakes which should be what power is balanced for not just character equal villain, hero can do this, villain do more, better. If just because he is a villain doom should be able to automatically have nerf level abilities there is no chess going on in the balance of your heroes vs your villains.

[sunofdarkchild]

Yeah, but Doom's a villain. (Most of the time.) That makes a big difference when it comes to storytelling.

Exactly. An all-powerful villain is an obstacle to be overcome by the hero. There's a reason it's Palpatine who shouts 'UNLIMITED POWER!' and not Luke or Yoda.

To use the Superman example, I love 90s Superman, the 'triangle era.' Yes, he was still obscenely powerful, able to move mountains, travel at near-light speed, and survive hydrogen bombs. But he still had defined limits - he couldn't juggle planets, travel to other galaxies in minutes, or survive supernovas to the face. In the 2000s they started bringing him back to silver age levels where he was effectively limitless in strength, power, speed, and invulnerability, and I have no interest in the character from that point on. There are other reasons beyond the power issue related to characterization and world-building, but the power issue is an important part of why Superman became a less interesting and more boring character. this millennium.

[Arachne]

I see what your saying, jwatson, but a hero fighting a more powerful villain will always make a better story than the other way around.

You posted while I was editing, BTW.

[cranger]

The last time I read a book with Doom he was made to look silly by Moondragon.

Villains getting written badly does not make it better. It just makes even worse stories (like all this Sinister garbage). A bad villain might show up once in a comic and when gone leave no reminder. A hero is always there to repeat the problem.

[Doom'nGloom]

I guess put that way i'm suprised the same problem isn't had with Doom because his intellect makes him omega. There has been nothing doom can't do if he puts his mind to it or a writer wants him to soo that seems more undefinable to me, or i'll translate it to endlessly creative.

I admit that writers usually treat intelligence as a free get out of jail card for most situations in comics but Doom usually becomes a big deal after he had time to prepare and after he hijacks some higher power. When he doesn't have that he gets trapped in hell, he gets thrown into the past in a nearly dead state by Marquis of Death or he even gets beaten up by Antman (Scott Lang). As for omega level mutants with the given definition, I can't think of any reason for Jean to get beaten other than her opponent being a mindless zombie or an AI conrolled robot and even then she can rely on her telekinesis.

[jwatson]

There's a difference between 'very powerful' and 'limitless' which is being ignored by most of these comparisons, but at least you didn't lump in villains. Thor for instance does have limitations in the vast majority of his appearances. He has enemies who are far more powerful than he is and has in fact burned himself out while fighting. If Thor was actually limitless in power, he would never have any trouble with Surtur or Set or the Serpent, and he'd be far more boring. The Hulk is a character who is actually functionally limitless in strength since he always has the out of just getting stronger by getting angrier, but his strength comes with very obvious downsides and it's those downsides that always made him an interesting character, not his strength, which is the most generic and boring superpower which a million other characters have.

When we criticize omega-level mutants, Jean's latest 'fight' with Nightmare is a prime example. There's no tension or stakes because she wins instantly just by virtue of being Jean Grey, the omega-level telepath. It was a similar story in Dark Web, where she defeats her supposed equal not by digging deep or outsmarting her, but again by virtue of being 'Jean who has no equal.' They don't bother trying to come up with creative ways to make the villains threatening such as having Nightmare use his supposed prep time to do anything to prepare for a rematch or have any of Maddie's magical powers and demon army make the slightest bit of difference in their fight. There is no point in ever having a psychic villain ever face a team with Jean on it since she can just insta-win against every psychic being in the multiverse with her limitless power. She doesn't have to prove she's worthy like Thor. She doesn't have to suffer the consequences of her power like Hulk or like she did as the Phoenix when her power was actually stated to have limits despite being at a cosmic level. She just wins. And that's just boring and uninteresting.

I actually agree with this but i think this is more about feats for feats purpose then status an an omega. I think Ewing has balanced his omega characters very well and made the stakes matter like with magneto and even Storm or her avatar they did have undefinable limits but so did the situation they were in at the time. I feel the two are getting mixed up because what happened with Nightmare wasn't because Jean was an omega, in that issue it was made very clear it was because she's Jean Grey. Thor does not suffer the consequences in the usage of his powers, like the latest issue he battle in all forms of ways with dropping a sweat but it was the emotional stakes the made it power, what he missed as a consequence of the world he lives in and the powers he wields, and those who seek it, and it was losing a considerable amount of time with his sister. It was losing his father. He may have not felt strong enough to succeeed but his powers were definitely undefinable and incalculable, and it was okay because of the story beats.

[jwatson]

I admit that writers usually treat intelligence as a free get out of jail card for most situations in comics but Doom usually becomes a big deal after he had time to prepare and after he hijacks some higher power. When he doesn't have that he gets trapped in hell, he gets thrown into the past in a nearly dead state by Marquis of Death or he even gets beaten up by Antman (Scott Lang). As for omega level mutants with the given definition, I can't think of any reason for Jean to get beaten other than her opponent being a mindless zombie or an AI conrolled robot and even then she can rely on her telekinesis.

Quentin Quire was also an omega level telepath and in the altered words of JHUd "Wheeeeeeeeeeere heeeeeeeeee aaaaaaaat!"

And just to elaborate because i know some will think this was just a dig or at least i think that will be the case, they have the same classification but different writers. It's a prime example of it's not about the power level itself but the creativity of the hero or villain and the balance between that vs. who the characters are at the core.

[Doom'nGloom]

Quentin Quire was also an omega level telepath and in the altered words of JHUd "Wheeeeeeeeeeere heeeeeeeeee aaaaaaaat!"

Quentin is at the other end of the spectrum. While Jean gets to show Nightmare who's boss, Quentin becomes the Kenny of X-force. I don't think one can be a justification for the other.

[sunofdarkchild]

It's not the 'undefinable' (really unmeasurable) part I or it seems anyone else has a problem with beyond the general vagueness. I was quite happy with that definition when Hickman first presented it. It's the switch from 'undefinable' to 'unlimited' that happened after Hickman left that's problematic. Undefinable or unmeasurable does not mean nonexistent. If 'undefinable' was still the standard, there would be a lot more room to have Nightmare give Jean a hard time or even defeat her. That gives the story freedom to set a dynamic and even change it by having one character or the other become stronger or weaker at different points. Once you set unlimited as the standard that's impossible. There is no way for the person to improve on infinity, and the other party can never match even if they become a literal billion times stronger since anything that isn't infinite is necessarily weaker.

[Saturius]

I admit that writers usually treat intelligence as a free get out of jail card for most situations in comics but Doom usually becomes a big deal after he had time to prepare and after he hijacks some higher power. When he doesn't have that he gets trapped in hell, he gets thrown into the past in a nearly dead state by Marquis of Death or he even gets beaten up by Antman (Scott Lang). As for omega level mutants with the given definition, I can't think of any reason for Jean to get beaten other than her opponent being a mindless zombie or an AI conrolled robot and even then she can rely on her telekinesis.

I still don't think you're making much sense. You acknowledge Doom's op-nes and try to pass off Doom's losses as legitimate or something so it doesn't "break" the story, but you don't seem to acknowledge that omegas lose too, and have a lot in the Krakoa era. This is just the nature of comics. You have to have a certain level of disbelief so writers can tell their story. It's never going to work out neatly all the time and that's just the nature of the medium. The way it is. If anything, the failure of Krakoa to make a dent in Orchis is proof of that.

[cranger]

Some of the arguments in favor of the omega classification as the way it is defined seem to just show why it is still dumb.

My biggest issue with it is it tries to define things that should not be defined. We can believe Hulk is the strongest because that is what the story shows but at any time he might face someone stronger. That should always be the possibility. Someone coming along and attempting to put it in writing that no one can ever be stronger than Hulk sounds like something a kid does when making up rules for a game they are trying to cheat their friends at.

[Doom'nGloom]

I still don't think you're making much sense. You acknowledge Doom's op-nes and try to pass off Doom's losses as legitimate or something so it doesn't "break" the story, but you don't seem to acknowledge that omegas lose too, and have a lot in the Krakoa era. This is just the nature of comics. You have to have a certain level of disbelief so writers can tell their story. It's never going to work out neatly all the time and that's just the nature of the medium. The way it is. If anything, the failure of Krakoa to make a dent in Orchis is proof of that.

Let me put it this way. Doom's not op 24/7. If he gets to plan and built some device, sure but he doesn't go around being all powerful all the time. The Jean that faces Nightmare is the same Jean that sits in Treehouse sipping her tea. With the way omega level is defined nothing should be able to stand in her way. Gods, aliens, monsters you name it. As long as her opponent has a mind or conscience or sentience or whatever you call it she can control it since there is no definable limit to her power. Then she either wins every fight she gets into which is boring or she loses for some contrived reason which most of the time comes out as PIS.

[Grunty]

Quentin Quire was also an omega level telepath and in the altered words of JHUd "Wheeeeeeeeeeere heeeeeeeeee aaaaaaaat!"

And just to elaborate because i know some will think this was just a dig or at least i think that will be the case, they have the same classification but different writers. It's a prime example of it's not about the power level itself but the creativity of the hero or villain and the balance between that vs. who the characters are at the core.

Meanwhile the seemingly most popular X-men and one capable of carrying a solo series the longest, has the powerset "heals quickly", "can smell like a dog" and "metal blades between the fingers" and is nowhere near the "gods" of mutantkinds in terms of theoretical* power level.

Of course writers over the past two decades have tried to make him more special and arguably overdone it in regards to who he can defeat even if it doesn't make sense (which both feels detrimental to what makes the character popular), but from a basic point of view the guy is basicly rather weakly powered compared to abilities which can manipulate energies, matter, elements, reality, time, space, etc.

*We know that power levels are basicly meaningless in comparison to popularity (among readers or writers), Batman is perhaps the most notable example since his popularity means writers will break any rule to find a way to justify why he could beat basicly anyone over in DC.

[jwatson]

Meanwhile the seemingly most popular X-men and one capable of carrying a solo series the longest, has the powerset "heals quickly", "can smell like a dog" and "metal blades between the fingers" and is nowhere near the "gods" of mutantkinds in terms of theoretical* power level.

Of course writers over the past two decades have tried to make him more special and arguably overdone it in regards to who he can defeat even if it doesn't make sense (which both feels detrimental to what makes the character popularity), but from a basic point of view the guy is basicly rather weakly powered compared to abilities which can manipulate energies, matter, elements, reality, time, space, etc.

*We know that power levels are basicly meaningless in comparison to popularity (among readers or writers), Batman is perhaps the most notable example since his popularity means writers will break any rule to find a way to justify why he could beat basicly anyone over in DC.

i won't get into the sales thing because the system is rigged. no one can tell me how much the general audience likes anything right now in comics except maybe amazon and that would be Scarlet Witch. So word of mouth in a community, old writers getting subscriptions when their last works weren't burning up the charts and new rising stars in the medium not speaks volumes into itself. So any talk for me about popularity is inherently a straw hat argument unless we look outside the medium of comics and even then if you pimp wolverine the way you do to who you did and with very little else given it's bound to become at least visible but that doesn't mean popularity either and as evident by my posts here i like wolverine.

X-force is still going and if as many people dropped it off and on so much how is it still "popular". Is anyone checking the bins at marvel to really check what is profitable.

[Grunty]

i won't get into the sales thing because the system is rigged. no one can tell me how much the general audience likes anything right now in comics except maybe amazon and that would be Scarlet Witch. So word of mouth in a community, old writers getting subscriptions when their last works weren't burning up the charts and new rising stars in the medium not speaks volumes into itself. So any talk for me about popularity is inherently a straw hat argument unless we look outside the medium of comics (...).

I have to agree that the sales of the comics are not an ideal indicator for what is popular with the majority of people who enjoy X-men based media and what isn't, because the whole (arguably outdated) system still used by Marvel and DC has essentialy reduced their product to that of a niche market.

In that regard Wolverine's comic popularity could even potentialy be attributed to a metaphorical self fulfilling prophecy. Ala. The comics sell because they are always bought, but they are always bought because they sell well and are therefor seen as "save pick" by collectors.

However it can't be denied that the character seems highly popular outside the comic audience aswell.

Central roles in the cartoons, central roles in the movies he appeared in, basicly every X-men related video game seemingly needs to have him as playable character, merchandise with him, being easily recognized even by people who aren't fans of the X-men an so on.

Personaly i don't understand why the character is that popular with such a large audience, but from what we can see, it works for him pretty well so far.

And perhaps the less impressive powerset does factor into that.

X-force is still going and if as many people dropped it off and on so much how is it still "popular". Is anyone checking the bins at marvel to really check what is profitable.

Another point for the self fulfilling prophecy theory perhaps?