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  1. #1186
    Ninpuu - Shinobi Change! Striderblack01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenixzero23 View Post
    Leadership is overrated
    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    I feel like the problem is that these days leadership is pretty much synonymous for protagonism when it comes to X-Men.
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  2. #1187
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenixzero23 View Post
    Leadership is overrated
    Leadership has its perks, but overall it's more of a burden, and whoever is the leader will end up falling or under everyone's scrutiny for being a failure. Cyclops was fit for leadership because he's tailor made for the shitty parts of leadership

  3. #1188
    Fire and life incarnate! phoenixzero23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wano View Post
    Leadership has its perks, but overall it's more of a burden, and whoever is the leader will end up falling or under everyone's scrutiny for being a failure. Cyclops was fit for leadership because he's tailor made for the shitty parts of leadership
    It can be an interesting role but nowadays it feels more like a crown, a prize, a privilege to elevate some characters over the others. which i don't like. even if i do like characters like Jean, Scott or kitty.

  4. #1189
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    My unpopular opinion:

    Jean Grey is the Carol Danvers of the x-men. The x-office likes to pretend they don't know how boring she is and constantly tries to "reboot" her character. Nightcrawler should've had her spot on the gold team

    Nightcrawlers death was the perfect time to "transform" the character into his AoA counterpart, which they brought back for x-force during that time anyway. I like Kurt but his AoA version is badass and more entertaining

    Rachel Summers is hella unnecessary and Magik could have been used for her story. Instead of the whole limbo thing, Magiks portal could have taken her to Rachel's era instead and that could have been used for Magiks backstory. This era would have hardened her the same way limbo did. When Magic returned, she would have been the one to tell them of the events that kicked off Days of Future Past which would alleviate the need for both Rachel and future kitty

    Madelyne Prior is one of the most horrid creations in the entire book and it was here that I knew Claremont was smoking that good. Mutant Massacre was one of the coolest story arcs and got completely ruined by Inferno and that whole Goblyn Queen nonsense. She also just made Scott's character look bad

  5. #1190
    homo superior gifted's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Personamanx View Post
    Chris Claremont is usually unreadable. I don't know how anyone could stick with a book of his let alone read Sixteen years of his X-Men.
    I agree in a sense. I really enjoy his work from the '70s and '80s. There was a lot of deep character development and great original stories; however, like someone mentioned, any other good writer can do that if given the chance for a run that lengthy. I'm also not the biggest fan of his modern work.

    As for the original question --

    I'm not a big fan of Sage, and I think the X-Board's obsession over her may have contributed to that.

    I'm a huge fan of Rick Remember's work with Uncanny X-Force and his continuation of the Apocalypse storyline in Uncanny Avengers. He told compelling stories with fresh takes on old plots; he also gave the characters he wrote a lot more depth. And without his use of Rogue, I don't think she would have gotten the push she got in recent years.

    As much as I love Erik, I believe he should finally pass. Lorna should rise up as an A-list X-Man and rebuild Genosha with her own team. Jean can lead Uncanny X-Men and Lorna can lead Superior X-Men. Jean vs. Lorna will be very similar to early Charles vs. Erik (think their relationship in the First Class movies). -- This was more an idea than an opinion, lol.
    I like boys, comics, Disney, and traveling. // follow me @ itsnickmen
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  6. #1191
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    While we're on the subject of Chris Claremont --

    Something that I've realized: I kind of hate the Dark Phoenix Saga. Jean Grey is my absolute favorite character and she is the star of the Dark Phoenix Saga, it's the biggest story that she's been featured at the center of, and is the one that people keep going back to when they think of Jean, but... it's just not good in it's foundation. It's effectively the story of a victim of mental abuse becoming a genocidal maniac and being stripped of all agency due to what the Phoenix is and what it makes Jean do, and the only ways that agency is regained is through the help of a man (Charles Xavier) or by killing herself, which is at least better than the original ending that had her literally stripped of her powers against her will.

    "It was more important to Jean Grey to die as a human than live as a god" is an important part of her character, sure, but there were and are so many more interesting ways that the Dark Phoenix Saga could have been told that wouldn't keep coming back to haunt the character and the concept of the Phoenix over and over and over because comic book writers are so... retrograde.

    "I'll always love you, Jean Grey." "I'll always love you too, Scott Summers." - Scott Summers and Jean Grey

  7. #1192
    Astonishing Member CRaymond's Avatar
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    DPS is a Women in Refridgerators snuff story. It’s barely about Jean. It’s about the loss of Charles’ most precious student and Cyclops’ most precious first love.

  8. #1193
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    DPS is a Women in Refridgerators snuff story. It’s barely about Jean. It’s about the loss of Charles’ most precious student and Cyclops’ most precious first love.


    I expected to get flamed for that post tbh.

    "I'll always love you, Jean Grey." "I'll always love you too, Scott Summers." - Scott Summers and Jean Grey

  9. #1194
    Mighty Member darewithpeace's Avatar
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    1. jean grey
    2. storm
    3. polaris
    4. psylocke
    5. rogue and kitty
    we can be heroes, just for one day

  10. #1195
    Astonishing Member CRaymond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    I expected to get flamed for that post tbh.
    Heck no. Your posts are almost always chock full of fairness and thoughtfulness.

    No offense, but when people describe Jean as their favorite character, I raise an eyebrow. She’s the ultimate example of “falling in love with potential”. I say that as someone who described Jean as his favorite character for years. I was a fan of some of her X-Factor and New X-Men moments, but she’s usually just the Mary Ann in a show with no Ginger.

    I once suggested DPS could be Marvel’s first Broadway Musical... but even that would be a tragedy narrated by Scott Summers.

  11. #1196
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    Heck no. Your posts are almost always chock full of fairness and thoughtfulness.
    I try but sometimes people here can be... trying haha.

    No offense, but when people describe Jean as their favorite character, I raise an eyebrow. She’s the ultimate example of “falling in love with potential”. I say that as someone who described Jean as his favorite character for years. I was a fan of some of her X-Factor and New X-Men moments, but she’s usually just the Mary Ann in a show with no Ginger.
    I get where you're coming from to a certain extent and there were absolutely times, especially during the 60s and the 90s, where Jean has been written that way but I think that's a more surface interpretation of a much more complex character. I do think that the Phoenix added something to her, and how Claremont defined her changed her character for the better, but I often point to those characterizations in X-Factor, New X-Men, Red, the current Uncanny, and multiple different runs to show how Jean should be written. She shouldn't just be the bland and depthless 'girl,' but often is.

    I once suggested DPS could be Marvel’s first Broadway Musical... but even that would be a tragedy narrated by Scott Summers.
    God. You're completely right.

    "I'll always love you, Jean Grey." "I'll always love you too, Scott Summers." - Scott Summers and Jean Grey

  12. #1197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post

    I expected to get flamed for that post tbh.
    Oh, you wanted flames. I'll give them to you. Do people still use SJW as an insult?

    In all seriousness, the Dark Phoenix Saga suffers from what a lot of stories from the good old days suffer, a byproduct of the age. Sure, at the time, the Dark Phoenix Saga may have been really progressive, but age has not been so kind. That's why other stories like Days of Future Past come off as cliche due to all the Phoenix and Time Travel stories that come after that.

  13. #1198
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by U.N. Owen View Post
    Oh, you wanted flames. I'll give them to you. Do people still use SJW as an insult?
    Not if they want to be taken remotely seriously :P

    I didn't want flames, that's just what I've come to expect of fandom forums.

    "I'll always love you, Jean Grey." "I'll always love you too, Scott Summers." - Scott Summers and Jean Grey

  14. #1199
    Astonishing Member CRaymond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    God. You're completely right.
    And you know what... DPS isn’t even a terrible story once you let go of any notions that it’s Jean’s story. It’s a pretty solid parable about what happens to women who outgrow the Nice Guys(tm) they once associated with. Charles thinks she needs his “help”. Scott thinks she’s gone “bad”. What if she just doesn’t need them anymore?

    Eventually the patriarchy catches up with her, and she chooses death rather than be a monster or a slave. Maybe there’s still a musical in there, but told from different perspectives.

  15. #1200
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    Maybe there’s still a musical in there, but told from different perspectives.
    They made a musical about the life of Alexander Hamilton using songs that you wouldn't expect for that era. Who knows? Once Phase 5 of the MCU comes around after breaking several billion, Feige could say "Screw it, we're making a musicals about the New X-Men (Academy X), Power Pack, and Kid Kaiju and we'll be building up to Onslaught as the big bad."

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