I guess this goes here. My Letter to DC Comics. Destiny, Dream, Death, The Flash and The DCverse

[JohnJones]

This is the letter I sent. I really dont expect a reply which is why I am posting it here. Also I might be wrong in some of my assumptions/ideas and if I am please let me know because im kinda upset with how the property of Morpheous has been treated by DC and if possible I would really like to make a kickstarter to buy it off of them. Like real talk, if they're not going to go about telling his story (theyve apparently tried a few times) then they shouldnt own the character. IMO they didnt start with Sandman and they havent introduced Death Dream Destiny or any of the other Endless into any form of Film version even though their universes are apparently the same. Also, they really need to show how the endless work with the other characters in the universe which they havent done in print or in film.

Anyway this was the email I sent:

[Start]

Hey so im just going to email you guys once and hope this gets through, but in my opinion you are ruining the continuity of the DC universe by not sticking to the comics, creating "bs crime shows", and basicly using your property, at least from my perspective, to NEVER let Sandman and Morpheous see the light of film/tv as well as combine the universes (like they supposedly are). (btw The Sandman imo SHOULD be an epic TV show similar to Game of thrones in order to maximize profit and hook as many non comic readers you can, additionally you get the time needed to fit the story as opposed to say 7 films like "harry potter")

However.... you completely screwed this up with Lucifer. Like you could have EASILY started the Show lucifer with Gaimans Season of Mists and you're just like yeah he left hell and went on vacation... then you proceed to put out this garbage of a show which literally feels like I am watching a rerun of "insert crime show formula here" which lol is Not lucifer.

On the Flash... the older golden age sandman could have easily been put into the show as he would be a character that fits. THEN you could have EASILY connected these two universes for TV viewers as a segue into Morpheous trying to get back his equipment. Old sandman fits w/ CWs Flash universe imo.

Alternatively, this is me trying to understand the universe with respect to The Endless... but I'm having trouble. I think the Flash has to go back in time to meet Destiny of the Endless in order for the universes to coincide. Desiny of the endless then basically inputs Flash into his correct reality to stop say Darkseid or something idk.

Then i get into this whole concept of death... which im gonna be honest idk who is over at DC/Vertigo but once you made Gaimans Death an aspect of Death and NOT death incarnate you completely are missing something with your timelines because the endless are billions and thousands of years old where as the rest of universe is in its infancy. Therefore Gaimans death, must have had to create the other "deaths" (Black rider, Black flash (not sure how rider/flash are different), nekron, etc) in order to inevitably kill characters that she could not get to for whatever reason. For instance, it would make sense in my head that The Flash, goes back in time, meets Destiny (or Destiny simply reveals himself while The Flash is time traveling as Destiny can always be present regardless of speed/moving/etc hes a static force in the universe) this then causes other stuff to happen which then prompts Destiny to create Death the moment The Flash leaves as to fulfill the idea that Death only came into existence once life was there. Since we know that the original Despair was killed and that the current Despair is 10 billion years old, then we MUST conclude that Death existed before Despair and is AT LEAST as old as the universe and this also coincides with Death being able to end the universe.

Anyway continuing with this idea, Destruction has stated that " The Endless are merely patterns. The Endless are ideas. The Endless are wave functions The Endless are repeating motifs. The Endless are echoes of darkness, and nothing more... And even our existences are brief and bounded. None of us will last longer than this version of the Universe"

Meaning 1) Gaimans Endless are Universal and not Worldly, meaning they can take the same form on all earths as all earths are still part of the same universe (else travel b/t them wouldnt be possible) additinoally they are omnipresent/omnipotent/omnieverything which argubaly you ignored w/ captain atom 2) The Endless are Present in the Speedforce. Which could explain the mystery of how the Speed force exists because if The Flash ran back in time, to Destiny then Destiny would be FORCED to create the speed force realm... then comes the question if The Flash, earth based could even exist then because Dream created the dream that earth can support life (much like I assume other planets)

[JohnJones]

Then we get into Jesse Custer and that entire world which again is apparently part of the same universe... (which btw guys complete props for putting that on TV) im not sure if America, and the walking dead audience, is ready for it though (like jesse literally goes after god lololollol do you know what that means to fundamental christians hahahaha plus I am going to love how "The Blood Line of Christ" fits in because Ennis made him inbred) (one more note on this: Was Christ the one to create hope that killed the first despair? It would make sense as the MAN who killed despair would suffer for all of eternity... as when ever "church" happened he would be punished and who is more of a martyr than jesus, alternatively it could have been The greek god Prometheus (not your villain Prometheus)

Note: your "new worlds" started 5 billion years ago and already stated Destiny is 10 billion years old. Therefore, again The Endless are there.... when the universe replicated into 52 universes... Destiny again knows/was present. This may cause plot holes with the watchmen but im not entirelly sure how as ive never really got into it but I'm told

Anyway it is stated that the Realms of the endless are outside of the physical orrery of the worlds which when I read that "dream and nightmare" are two separate worlds I have no idea how that could be unless Morpheus took his own realm and split it because there was conflict b/t dreams he created. This being said, Destiny and the other endless realms are said not to exist.... which simply cant be true. Also the speed force is not listed as a realm which again im not entirely sure how that's possible because if it is the way that it is said, the endless reside in dreams realm which goes against the Endless having their own realms and would mean that Dream started with the universe not Destiny and Destiny is a creation of Dream. But we know this not to be the case because Destiny is Older than Dream. In fact according to your universe Destiny is the oldest DC Universe Character EVER. Also just because the Endless might have their own Domains in Dreams Realm it doesnt mean they have their own realm.

http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Multiverse#52_Multiverse (im getting my info from here)

From this picture
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/...20141104181338

It looks as if Destiny is outside the sphere of the gods, which would make sense... but then it would mean that destiny does NOT have a domain in dreams realm, and instead observed the creation of the realm as well as Dream. Then you show the speed force wall which means, that once Flash breaks through he basicly has the ability to interact with the gods and tbt I really think the "speed force" must be its own realm OR the realms of the gods are actually one in the same with the speed force meanign that characters who can tap into the speedfoce can travel to the realms of the gods if at the right location. So depending on The Flashes physical location (ie say mt olympus because its invovled in sandman) can travel to any Realm of the gods even if he isn't on the right earth. It woudlnt matter what earth he is on because regardless of the number of earths they still all fall under the realm of the gods.

So if the source is outside of even Destiny... how is it only 5 billion years old where as Destiny is 10 billion years old? It woudl then make sense that there are two sources, source 1 which created this map and souce 2 which created the 52 worlds. Idk... my mind gets confused lolol Also if Death Ends the Universe doesnt that mean she ends the Multiverse? And since she ends the other gods as well doesnt it mean that death is outside of the Overvoid aswell?

Anyway to recap: Why are you poorly introducing characters on TV specifically Lucifer? Like people who are fans of the comic basicly have a show that is in Name only... which literally means its nonsensical garbage created by you to make money. Like Real talk DC start a kickstarter and get buy back the rights to your property because the Movie Studios have a history of caring more about profits and less about the universe. This has been made evident since The Flash on CW is not The Flash in the movies.... which is whatever but then that means that the TV series is a different universe than the movie universe. Also plot hole, when in the new captain america, Flash goes into bruces dream.... does this mean that DREAM isnt present because 1) his realm has been compromised and 2) It is part of the period he had been captured in? Or really how does Flash get into the dream realm/dreams w/o using the speedfoce. If he does use the speed foce, once he gets to the realm of gods, since they are oudside the speed force then they too are as fast as The Flash meaning that the Flash can't actually out run death because they are the same. Additionally since Death, like destiny and dream are personifications and physical embodiments of the ideas, then it must stand too that the Flash is the literal personification and embodiment of the idea of movement and that w/o The Flash, the universe would be static. Which then raises questions of how did the entire universe pre52 exist without Destiny and The Flash meeting?


Yeah..... thats where my brain is. This is why you dont ruin storylines. This is why when you chose to merge universes you keep the original intentions of the writers and dont hire another writer to supercede characters like the endless because, and maybe I am wrong here, but you open up a lot of problems with how the uni/multi verses work... what/who the endless actually are.


Anyway I can easily see a comic based around Destiny that fixes a lot of problems with the DC universe.

[/END]

So guys any idea on my ideas or am I missing something huge? It seems to me that DC/hollywood is severely going about the handling of their property wrong. I feel like this could be an act of negligence but am not sure how that will tie into a company losing rights to their property similarly to how a company who uses their science for bad inevitably gets shut down and their science confiscated.

[nightrider]

I think you should chill. Sandman will appear in the movie universe and will have nothing to do with the TV lucifer.

[ABH]

TL;DR...

but I hope you didn't send that to DC Comics, since it seems like your interest is in TV and Movies.

[GreenLanternRanger]

I think you are a very passionate and opinionated individual which is fine as you have every right to share your views on the state of DCs comics, Films & television programs. But bear in mind not everyone will share the same opinion on the subject.

[twiztor]

nobody at DC Comics is going to read all that. you started with "you're ruining comics" which made me roll me eyes and dismiss anything you have to say after that. i would imagine the same will go for whichever intern they have read "fan mail"

[JohnJones]

Alright not really where I was going, but i do see your point. I am talking about mainly the comic universe. However, Wb&DC have been very enthusiastic with merging shows/films and doing cross overs even though they have stated that the TV versions, The Films, and The Comics are all seperate entities and have their own story lines.

This being said, what I am talking about mostly is a problem that arises within the comics and how they have handled some of the characters. There is some stuff said, which I will go on and talk about. However having read only Sandman, 100 Bullets, Fables, Preacher, Lucifer, and Y:the last man from vertigo that was my basis coming into the universe. After seeing the CW flash, and starting to look up things about the flash and having seen the movies is where I understand some of my other stuff. This being said, recently in trying to figure out the hierarchy of the characters and placement in the universe and how they all coincide. I always thoguht they were seperate worlds most of which dont even tie into each other. Quickly I learned that this was not the case and Flashpoint was when the comic universes DC (new earth), Vertigo (Earth 13) and Wildstorm (Earth-50) merge. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flashpoint_(comics) and that the entire Vertigo universe merged with what basicly amounts to The Flash and the Time Travelling he did.

Read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse_(DC_Comics)}
Then Resume

Im basicly talking from flash point on and The New 52 or the map I referenced in the previous post.

Now read about Destiny
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destiny_(DC_Comics)
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Destiny_(New_Earth)

Now read about Death
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_(DC_Comics)
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Death
(quick question... if she cant end people like lucifer how can she end the universe, i guess they were put to rest by other means or are not living??//all univereses have ended and only the rest of the map exists)

And read a lot about Dream
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Dream
(question: W/o Dream doesn't that mean he can physically control everything since it is just a dream that "earth" can support life?)

(question: How does Dream and Sandman not tie directly into Lucifer?) ((Why ohh why is there no TV crossover?)

Now read about Dr. Destiny
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_Destiny#The_New_52

(question: How does Dream not tie directly into everything)

(also please note that due to Dream coming into form during so many time periods, it can only be assumed he is one of the most influential characters in the DCverse) (also hob gadling is a really fun character and one of my favorite but bears little relevance as it can be assumed he can pretty much be on any earth as hes just for the most part some random dude)

Now read about the Timeline
http://dcuniverseonline.wikia.com/wi...rical_Timeline

We know Destiny Started it and Death ended it. Dream was everything in between.

Whatever way you want to look at it, Gaimans Death was before all other Deaths Existed and I can only assume she asked Dream/she created them to kill characters for whatever reason escaped her grasp.

Now read about The Black Racer
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Racer_(DC_Comics)
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/William_Walker_(New_Earth)

And take a look at the source
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/The_Source

Now lets revisit the map.
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/...20141104181338

So from this, Destiny is opposite the Source or they are one in the same.
From the notes on the left, it says The endless are part of the Old Gods sphere, which makes no sense since Destiny is part of the Overvoid which is outside of the Old Gods sphere.

Now look at the Speedforce wall, since it is only a barrier (though the CWs flash makes it seem like a place), given the right portal/place in space... isnt the flash able to go into the realm of he gods? Since he can also travel in time by himself, couldnt he run literally to the point that is After Destiny (AD lol) and Before Death (BD)? If this is done, when having an interaction with Destiny. The Flash, runs into the personification of destiny and due to that, he is instantly traveled back to the time and place and universe etc etc that he has to be at because destiny knows.

This all being said, it is much more likely that Destiny would somehow interject while the flash is time travelling, because im pretty much assuming he can from his known abilities and things he has done in other comics that are of the DCverse. Therefore, he could potentially meet with Death and she tell him that its not quite his time yet and transport him somewhere, meet with despair and relive the saddest moments of his life, or dream where maybe the "speed force" domain is created. Or what if The flash, while in the speed force, tries to break though and instead breaks out of his domain and into Dreams domain because Dream is currently being held captive (holds with storyline). While in the dream world The Flash is able to go into Bruce Waynes Dream///the dreams of others (not sure if he does it in the comics but he apparently does this in Batman Vs Superman movie) and because he is so fast he can not be caught by anything that dream had currently created because he wouldnt have known about having to deal with The Flash and create a dream that could keep up with him.

Idk the way it seems, the Flash can interact with everything much like the endless and due to the way he works could potentially be one of the endless himself?

Also, upon learning about Ultra Comics, it would only follow that the Unknown are "Grant Morrison et al" which imo could be a really funny inside joke as ti seems like The Gentry are controlled by them. I kinda want to read Ultra now lol. Seems like it could be Goosebumps esque having the reader go back and forth lolol.

[zhris]

...and if possible I would really like to make a kickstarter to buy it off of them.

Never gonna happen. Didn't Moore try to buy back (or reclaim, or something) Watchmen?

...introduced Death Dream Destiny or any of the other Endless into any form of Film version...

I don't want that, and neither should you. The budget to do it 'right' would be ridiculous, and chances are it'd end up similar to the neutering that Lucifer got.

[Tetragrammar]

To the OP

I enjoyed reading your post. I scanned most of it and will reread it later. I'm a diehard Sandman fan so anytime people like to discuss Dream and the Endless I'm all in. First off, the Endless are so abstract that even when we see them in the Sandman they're only a facet of something much, much larger. This is shown in Overture with the assembly of Dream in his infinite aspects. In theory, even though we don't often see the Endless in mainstream DC comics, they still are there nevertheless. When anything dies or changes or desires somethin, in essence, that more or less are the Endless.

When you look at the map of the multiverse, I would look at it in layers for instance. One layer is comprises all the universes, another layer is that of ideas and archetypes and non-physical dimensions, another layer could be time. Heaven and Hell are opposite in idea, just as Dream and Nightmare, but don't look as if Dream divided his kingdom of the Dreaming; it's just divided to show polar opposites. It's all one big stew of ideaspace and also possibly the fifth dimension as well. If you were to look at the map itself then in essence you could view it as the body of what would be God (which we see manifested in form in the Lucifer series). Everything outside of creation is the overvoid. The universe itself could also be Time and Night (the parents of the Endless). So all these elements fuse together in one big creation stew where the Endless exist, in all realms.

As for Death. There is only one Death and that's Death of the Endless. Sure, Nekron exists and the Black Racer and Black Flash but they are just godly aspects of death, the same way there are death gods that exist within all mythologies, specifically the three death gods that appear in the Sandman Presents Thessaly miniseries. Those death gods weren't Death.

I do agree the Lucifer television show is nothing compared to the comic-book masterpiece.

Also, if you're looking for great representations of the Endless outside the main Sandman/Vertigo universe, check out Paul Cornell's Action Comics run and also read Paul Dini's Dark Night: A true batman story. That has a spot on scene connecting Batman and the Dreaming. The Endless could work in all realities if handled with the right creative visions.

I know my post may seem all over the place but I typed it up in a hurry.

[Tetragrammar]

The Endless has huge potential. Ultimately there is no reason why Sandman or, including other Vertigo properties such as Books of Magic and Lucifer and Hellblazer couldn't become the next Game of Thrones or Harry Potter. John Constantine himself could make an amazing series on HBO or Showtime. It boils down to execution I think, and really making these concepts special. Sandman has failed to be adapted onto the big screen because where do you go, what do you do to make it just right. Do you adapt each issue? Do you focus on mortal characters with the Endless as forces that linger in the shadows? Are the Endless too abstract from the get-go to hook audiences for a TV show initially? With something with Sandman and Dream, that property is special and unique which makes it even more difficult to get the right note.

I do not see anyone being these properties off DC as a kickstarter, especially since these are Neil Gaiman's children as much as DC properties.

The Endless have huge potential within the DC universe, hell, they could be used in any universe and nothing would ever really contradict the original Sandman series. But they shouldn't be thrown around since that would cheapen their appeal. Still, DC with the right focus could still have amazing stories with the Endless interacting with the DC proper.