Civil War II (Spoilers)

[Tony Stark]

I like that Tony Stark asked Carol Danvers, "which one of us are you going after next"? I could see Carol was just as shocked that Hawkeye shot Banner, so Carol couldn't be considered involved with this takedown. What Stark seems to be implying is "that more of these situations are going to be appearing on the horizon, so what are you going to do about it, so this doesn't happen those next times"?

I can't see how Clint isn't given a guilty verdict. Tony said he knew the verdict, as though he was suggesting Clint was going to be aquitted, but I think he should be found guilty.

The thing about Carol is that she agreed and stood with Hawkeye's choice. And that's bull. Tony said it would happen and it has.

[jackolover]

Given that it was the HULK that he took down. You know the Very monster that caused more property damage to the US in all of his existence ?

I would think that given Clint's Avenger status and how the government feels about the Hulk and his past, that all charges are dropped, just like a real life police trial experience.

You're probably going to be right. I just wish that it took another tack, instead.

[jackolover]

Has anybody tried to reconcile why Carol Danvers is in charge of one faction in CW2 and not Steve Rogers Captain America? We get them together in one issue discussing things in CW Gods of War #2, but hardly anywhere else.

I'm just wondering if that's why this CW2 is less popular than CW1 because it has Carol at the helm. Nothing against Carol, because she needs a boost, but what was the thinking going into this that Carol was a better fit than Steve to confront Tony?

I don't see why Carol has a prominent part in the 616 since the reboot? Is it because she is with the Ultimates? How are they situated to be the big wheels at the start of ANAD? There seem to be a few steps missing in how the Ultimates and Carol in particular were allowed to do these radical things, (like Galactus, and Spece-Time readjustments), as representatives of Earth. And now, somehow, Carol heads up one side of the CW2. Steve Rogers is right there, and he had charge of the whole Infinity army at one stage. Is it because the world was ageist against old man Rogers, and when he became young, Carol couldn't be stepped down? It's just strange Carol is placed in a role as the best leader in he 616.

Nothing showing Carol on the stand in the trial of Hawkeye seems to bear onto this issue any further either.

[penthotal]

It's how I see what I'm reading. If you can't understand that, then you haven't done any speculating yourself. People disagree with what I see, and that's okay, but don't come on here and try to stop me writing it how I see it.

It's clearly misdirection, the writer makes you believe until the end the traitor is Karnak, even using green thought balloons to tie to his costume, then just in the end there's the twist where you see the traitor is actually Triton, whose skin is green and ties to the thought balloons. It's a really old storytelling trick.

[SSJMorales]

Has anybody tried to reconcile why Carol Danvers is in charge of one faction in CW2 and not Steve Rogers Captain America? We get them together in one issue discussing things in CW Gods of War #2, but hardly anywhere else.

I'm just wondering if that's why this CW2 is less popular than CW1 because it has Carol at the helm. Nothing against Carol, because she needs a boost, but what was the thinking going into this that Carol was a better fit than Steve to confront Tony?

I don't see why Carol has a prominent part in the 616 since the reboot? Is it because she is with the Ultimates? How are they situated to be the big wheels at the start of ANAD? There seem to be a few steps missing in how the Ultimates and Carol in particular were allowed to do these radical things, (like Galactus, and Spece-Time readjustments), as representatives of Earth. And now, somehow, Carol heads up one side of the CW2. Steve Rogers is right there, and he had charge of the whole Infinity army at one stage. Is it because the world was ageist against old man Rogers, and when he became young, Carol couldn't be stepped down? It's just strange Carol is placed in a role as the best leader in he 616.

Nothing showing Carol on the stand in the trial of Hawkeye seems to bear onto this issue any further either.

It's not a matter of best leader. Carol is the one pushing this Ulysses Agenda, not Steve. It's the same way as Tony was pushing the registration act in CW I.

Carol formed the Ultimates with the idea to prevent incidents before they happen, Ulysses is the perfect thing for her to come across to try and get this down, which is why she is so gung-ho and focused on using him.

Unless you meant in terms of editorial/writing decision to use her rather than in universe reasoning. They don't want to just do another Tony vs Steve again which we already saw in CWI(and since then). Also they are going to want to push Carol/Captain Marvel more and more over next few years, with upcoming MCU movie.

[Habis]

Has anybody tried to reconcile why Carol Danvers is in charge of one faction in CW2 and not Steve Rogers Captain America? We get them together in one issue discussing things in CW Gods of War #2, but hardly anywhere else.

I'm just wondering if that's why this CW2 is less popular than CW1 because it has Carol at the helm. Nothing against Carol, because she needs a boost, but what was the thinking going into this that Carol was a better fit than Steve to confront Tony?

I don't see why Carol has a prominent part in the 616 since the reboot? Is it because she is with the Ultimates? How are they situated to be the big wheels at the start of ANAD? There seem to be a few steps missing in how the Ultimates and Carol in particular were allowed to do these radical things, (like Galactus, and Spece-Time readjustments), as representatives of Earth. And now, somehow, Carol heads up one side of the CW2. Steve Rogers is right there, and he had charge of the whole Infinity army at one stage. Is it because the world was ageist against old man Rogers, and when he became young, Carol couldn't be stepped down? It's just strange Carol is placed in a role as the best leader in he 616.

Nothing showing Carol on the stand in the trial of Hawkeye seems to bear onto this issue any further either.

I think CW 2 is less popular than CW 1 because the hero vs hero war thing has gotten old. Plus everybody remembers how bad the heroes looked during previous similar events.

Not sure this is going to be good for Carol. She had already received a good boost, and was quickly becoming an A-lister. Now, they risk turning her into a hated strawman.

As for why to use her instead of Tony and Steve... both of those have taken their turns hunting fellow heroes, and both looked very bad while doing it: Tony Stark during Civil War 1 and Steve Rogers during Time Runs Out. The writers probably want to repair their image, so they can't afford to have any of them to be the opressive tyrant who sends people to jail before they commit any crime.

[Frontier]

It boggles the mind how anyone could think promoting a character through a Civil War event comic is a good idea.

Granted, it boggles the mind that they would do this again and allow the writing we've seen so far...

[Habis]

It boggles the mind how anyone could think promoting a character through a Civil War event comic is a good idea.

Granted, it boggles the mind that they would do this again and allow the writing we've seen so far...

Because people keep buying the comics even as they rage against them. And the controversy is free publicity, too. Internet keeps exploding with rage and that attracts new readers out of curiosity.

However, this formula is risky. The whole hero vs hero thing and heroes doing bad stuff is becoming the rule rather than the exception, so it will lose effectivity, and all the while, they are burning out the classics.

[jackolover]

It's not a matter of best leader. Carol is the one pushing this Ulysses Agenda, not Steve. It's the same way as Tony was pushing the registration act in CW I.

Carol formed the Ultimates with the idea to prevent incidents before they happen, Ulysses is the perfect thing for her to come across to try and get this down, which is why she is so gung-ho and focused on using him.

Unless you meant in terms of editorial/writing decision to use her rather than in universe reasoning. They don't want to just do another Tony vs Steve again which we already saw in CWI(and since then). Also they are going to want to push Carol/Captain Marvel more and more over next few years, with upcoming MCU movie.

I never got the impression Carol was the driver pushing the Ultimates agenda. I thought it was a mutual agreement amongst the assembled people. But let's say she was the driver. How did she get that way? What made her think that, "Well, super hero work has failed up to now. Why don't we be proactive"? It's that turn in her character that I didn't get. As far as I could tell, Carol was pretty contented with her little adventures in her book, and now suddenly she acts like she is precipitating all the disaster that is happening in ANAD. It's possible Carol's proactive pushing influenced Maria Hill to step up the use of Kobik in Pleasant Hill, because of this Carol push to solve all the problems of safety on Earth? What made Carol step out of the shadows and be somebody we've never seen before? Reed Richards, or any of the Illuminati didn't go in this direction before, although the Illuminati agenda has its roots in proactive action before a threat starts, but we all know how that turned out.

I just wonder if those lessons by the Illuminati weren't learnt by the ANAD inhabitants? Why would you start a campaign to be proactive if you already know what the Illuminati bungled when they tried it?

[jackolover]

There was a nice SSDC panel on CWII that asked what was your favourite part of CW2 so far?

So far, the Ms Marvel tie-in was my favourite, because Kamala sides with Carol, and invades private homes for profiling reasons, yet, with her family history of fleeing persecution in India in 1948, Kamals actions were the opposite of what her heritage was about.

The other interesting issue came up when a teacher said they used the comics in their classes. But I wondered, are students really interested in comics enough to talk about them as a discussion subject? I originally thought students would be too lazy or blaze' to interest them in fictional subjects. But they aren't totally fictional subjects, not completely. There are snippets of current affairs and how it relates to real life issues, just done with name changes.

[jackolover]

In IIM #12 it's stated that it has been 3 weeks since the start of CWII and the Stark Tower destroyed.

In CWII : The Accused Preview, it has been 4 weeks since Hawkeye killed Banner, and the start of the trial

A lot of time is going by between issues here. About 7 weeks so far. While a lot of dead air is in between tie-in issues, I can accept that multiple tpb's of CWII mini series' fit between each of the main books that come out. For instance, the International Iron Man issues (where Tony's parents are revealed), fit in as a trade between CWII issues # 1 and 2.

[Tony Stark]

In IIM #12 it's stated that it has been 3 weeks since the start of CWII and the Stark Tower destroyed.

In CWII : The Accused Preview, it has been 4 weeks since Hawkeye killed Banner, and the start of the trial

A lot of time is going by between issues here. About 7 weeks so far. While a lot of dead air is in between tie-in issues, I can accept that multiple tpb's of CWII mini series' fit between each of the main books that come out. For instance, the International Iron Man issues (where Tony's parents are revealed), fit in as a trade between CWII issues # 1 and 2.

Thanks for the timeline. It's appreciated.

[jackolover]

My pleasure

We have one date stated at the start of Hawkeyes trial - 7.19.2016
It is 4 weeks before trial Rhodey killed, Banner is killed - 6.19.2016
It is 3 weeks since Celestial event and Thanos killed Rhodey - 5.27.2016

So CWII #0 started 5.27.2016. Ulysses vision of Celestial and takedown
CWII #1 6.19.2016. Thanos kills Rhodey, and Tower destroyed, Banner killed
CWII #3. 7.19.2016. Hawkeye trial starts

Edit. Had to alter the dates. It wasn't 4 months since Banners death to the trial, but 4 weeks.

[Supermutant2099]

My pleasure

We have one date stated at the start of Hawkeyes trial - 7.19.2016
It is 4 weeks before trial Rhodey killed, Banner is killed - 3.19.2016
It is 3 weeks since Celestial event and Thanos killed Rhodey - 2.27.2016

So CWII #0 started 2.27.2016. Ulysses vision of Celestial and takedown
CWII #1 3.19.2016. Thanos kills Rhodey, and Tower destroyed, Banner killed
CWII #3. 7.19.2016. Hawkeye trial starts

Its funny I was watching daredevil season 2 yesterday. I was reminded trials don't usually go that fast to trial. Cause of pre trials motions, other trials going on, and such stuff. 4 months is not to bad but does seem a little fast.

[ZephyrSurf]

I never got the impression Carol was the driver pushing the Ultimates agenda. I thought it was a mutual agreement amongst the assembled people. But let's say she was the driver. How did she get that way? What made her think that, "Well, super hero work has failed up to now. Why don't we be proactive"? It's that turn in her character that I didn't get. As far as I could tell, Carol was pretty contented with her little adventures in her book, and now suddenly she acts like she is precipitating all the disaster that is happening in ANAD. It's possible Carol's proactive pushing influenced Maria Hill to step up the use of Kobik in Pleasant Hill, because of this Carol push to solve all the problems of safety on Earth? What made Carol step out of the shadows and be somebody we've never seen before? Reed Richards, or any of the Illuminati didn't go in this direction before, although the Illuminati agenda has its roots in proactive action before a threat starts, but we all know how that turned out.

I just wonder if those lessons by the Illuminati weren't learnt by the ANAD inhabitants? Why would you start a campaign to be proactive if you already know what the Illuminati bungled when they tried it?

I'm not sure how you could even realize the source when its clearly spelled out.

In Ultimates she's the one who proposed the idea of the team to Black Panther. That in and of itself makes her the driver as she's the one who came up with the idea. She of course took consideration of each team member from another, but she was the one who put the idea across. And the entire reason she came up with the idea was because she believed the Illuminati's goal could be done correctly with transparency and accountability.

She had the basis - Illuminati through all of Hickman's Avengers run
She had the authority - Leader of the Alpha Flight Program(Which would ut her on a comparable level to such bodies as SHIELD and SWORD which Alpha Flight replaced)
She was the proposer.
she understood where the previous system(illuminati) failed - lack of transparency and collusion

It's not at all hard to understand how she got to that point.