Civil War II (Spoilers)

[jackolover]

Its funny I was watching daredevil season 2 yesterday. I was reminded trials don't usually go that fast to trial. Cause of pre trials motions, other trials going on, and such stuff. 4 months is not to bad but does seem a little fast.

It's even worse than 4 months to trial, because it as 4 weeks, so I had to alter my post.

[jackolover]

I'm not sure how you could even realize the source when its clearly spelled out.

In Ultimates she's the one who proposed the idea of the team to Black Panther. That in and of itself makes her the driver as she's the one who came up with the idea. She of course took consideration of each team member from another, but she was the one who put the idea across. And the entire reason she came up with the idea was because she believed the Illuminati's goal could be done correctly with transparency and accountability.

She had the basis - Illuminati through all of Hickman's Avengers run
She had the authority - Leader of the Alpha Flight Program(Which would ut her on a comparable level to such bodies as SHIELD and SWORD which Alpha Flight replaced)
She was the proposer.
she understood where the previous system(illuminati) failed - lack of transparency and collusion

It's not at all hard to understand how she got to that point.

You could be right.

Carol may have become disenchanted with reactive responses as a philosophy. She was pretty jaded in the end, by the whole way the 616 collapsed, as an epitaph to the super heroes legacy of service. Maybe that was one of the self evaluations that super heroes did on themselves after stepping out of the white light (After Secret Wars ended), into the ANAD? I imagine stepping out of a furnace like Battleworld, after experiencing the death of their Earth, would dictate a different direction to take than what they had been using in the 616 previously.

[Supermutant2099]

It's even worse than 4 months to trial, because it as 4 weeks, so I had to alter my post.

Seeing the altered post I'm reminded more of daredevil season 2

[Hulkout42]

I'm not sure how you could even realize the source when its clearly spelled out.

In Ultimates she's the one who proposed the idea of the team to Black Panther. That in and of itself makes her the driver as she's the one who came up with the idea. She of course took consideration of each team member from another, but she was the one who put the idea across. And the entire reason she came up with the idea was because she believed the Illuminati's goal could be done correctly with transparency and accountability.

She had the basis - Illuminati through all of Hickman's Avengers run
She had the authority - Leader of the Alpha Flight Program(Which would ut her on a comparable level to such bodies as SHIELD and SWORD which Alpha Flight replaced)
She was the proposer.
she understood where the previous system(illuminati) failed - lack of transparency and collusion

It's not at all hard to understand how she got to that point.

And she will make the same mistakes they did, i mean in Ultimates 9 she blew off Adam's concerns regarding the direction they were taking.

[jackolover]

It has been 3 months since the start of Civil War II, and in that time, the introduction of Ulysses into the ANAD had intriguing results, almost like it was deliberate. Like someone wanted to see, if you drop a seemingly infallible resource into the super heroes lap, so they can predict the next threat, just how they intend to use that resource?

Up till now, it's mostly being used for the right reasons, with 38 predictions in 11 books. There have been a few unforeseen outcomes from early intervention:
She-Hulks injury
War Machines death
Hulks death
Alison Greens curious unrelated connection

Tony Starks mistrust of Ulysses comes down to corrupted data, and predictive justice, but is wholly unconvincing at this stage.

Earlier successes by Ulysses, like the Celestial and Thanos were mostly uncontroversial, and it was only the Hulk death that gave the event a spike in interest. The resulting court case against killer Clint Barton went in his favor so Hulks death was swept under the carpet. 1 month went by in trial preparation, and another 1 month for court case and it's result - A long time while Tie-ins tried to fill in empty gaps.

[jackolover]

The Post CWI era was so packed with high impact Events, (as the Skrulls destroying Earth, the Worthy destroying earth, the P5 destroying the Earth, Alien Invasion in Infinity, Ultrons Attack, and then the return of Onslaught), that everyone just forgot to be judgemental about the superhumans while these Earth-shattering Events tumbled one after the other. It was a period so full of trauma and terror for humanity, and, it was driven by unpredictable Events.

Contrast that period to ANAD, and you get some idea why it was formed the way it was, with Ulysses the seer. None of the events that happened from CWI to the AXIS could ever have gone the same way if Ulysses had been around. (Not sure if Secret Wars would still have panned out the same way if Ulysses predicted it?)

One consequence of Ulysses insertion into ANAD has been the removal of characters from the world, like James Rhodes and Bruce Banner, and if this trend continues, more heroes will go missing. So what is left is a Ulysses formed world, with fewer superheroes, leading to unusual branching points in possible futures, and unforeseen outcomes. Ulysses is changing the future by creating circumstances where some heroes don't exist and this forces other heroes to deal with problems the missing heroes could have solved. (This has already been the case by removing the Fantastic Four prior to Ulysses insertion, and the Ultimates filling that role).

[jackolover]

What could have happened if Ulysses didn't exist?

Doctor Strange could have died sending Celestial away, but all heroes survive, except Strange

Thanos kills all heroes who came to the fight, but a time machine could have changed the outcome, but still no Strange.

Hulk kills all heroes who fought him and he kills the rest as in Old Man Logan's Wastelands. Hawkeyes arrow could be useless, because he could only fire it after Banner Hulks out when he finds out about it. Or, Banners arrow is way more lethal against Hulk than we give him credit for. In either case, way too many heroes are dead before Hulk is killed.

As a result of those outcomes, Doctor Doom and Red Skull become dominant forces left in the world.

[Xelossik]

jackolover :

What could have happened if Ulysses didn't exist?

Hard to say. Avengers have unlimited number of ways to stop celestials.
Wanda, Strange plus few sorcerers can always combine their powers to help Rogue and she can repeat her feat from Uncanny Avengers vol 1. But using powers of Iceman (multiple copies).
She alone is not strong enough but with the help of sorcerers or telepaths?

[jackolover]

jackolover :

Hard to say. Avengers have unlimited number of ways to stop celestials.
Wanda, Strange plus few sorcerers can always combine their powers to help Rogue and she can repeat her feat from Uncanny Avengers vol 1. But using powers of Iceman (multiple copies).
She alone is not strong enough but with the help of sorcerers or telepaths?

Yeah, if they had early warning to organise. But if the Celestial is just sprung on everybody, nobodies ready for it, and the whole situation could just grow out of control.

[Fokken]

RANT:

I've been bombarded, recently, with so much angst over Marvel's second Civil War event.

I understand Event-Fatigue and character-representation-concerns but I can't fully wrap my head around the flood like vitriol being spat at Marvel for their efforts to adapt. And the internet-community is just so quick to hate-bond.
I see readers arguing mistreatment of their favorite characters within the primary event book but those same characters are redeemed, further explored or examined in satellite and/or solo titles, tying into the event proper.

People argue: Bad Writing. But we're so quick to accuse and demean.

Perhaps some readers may consider acknowledging the opportunity this medium (monthly comics) affords both the publisher's creative teams and the readership to adapt. There is a curve we're afforded. There are so many saying "Carol is a villain. She's horrible. Her character is being assassinated!" but it seems those same readers dismiss the content of her solo title and how those writers are providing a unique and possibly unexpected perspective giving further insight into her mind frame that the event title could not provide.
And when I say "could not provide" -- I say that because the event title juggles so many more characters and interactions with a very limited page count. Opting out of that additional content (satellite books) is ...optional. And with the internet available?? Folks don't even have to spend money to learn whats going on. I don't condone that behavior but it happens. But for those who want to know/understand further? Its available. Lucky Us!

Readers argue inconsistent personalities, but these characters are people, and people adapt to their respective environments and comfort zones and "act" differently -- particularly in times of emotional stress. Perhaps that writers are taking that into consideration. They're not infallible.
On top of that, consider the translation factor (or loss of) from word to art. We all have our preferences, aesthetically speaking. Some love Greg Land. Some think he's a hack. Its all relative. But different styles convey emotion differently and one can't help but wonder if the furrowed brow and gritted teeth of our protagonist IS, in fact, intended to appear as GRRRRR as the artist in question has presented. Perhaps that particular artist's strength lies with camera angles or layout or action sequences rather than subtle emotional moments. Not everyone out there can be David Marquez.

My point here is, perhaps rather than chastising Marvel for granting Kelly Thompson an opportunity to explain She Hulk's coma further (Why should I have to read A-Force??) by elaborating on the details of that particular battle or dismissing the fact that Christos Gage (what? I shouldn't have to read Captain Marvel!!) has opted to expose readers to the unexpected vulnerability and loneliness Carol is experiencing beneath her hard candy exterior, or even the fact that Civil War is now extended to 8 issues with a NEW ending (perhaps more preferable?)- we might rather commend these decisions(?) that we so self righteously argue in person and online (Why? How? What?!), because they are essentially adapting.

Whether it was planned all along at one of their famed summits (we'll reveal She Hulk got Thanos slammed later. Suspense!) or if they are literally bobbing and weaving the reader reception to improve our collective experience and explain the many Yeah BUT HEY!'s we continually protest ad nauseam (****! They're pissed. Kelly -- get in here! The missile thing isn't jiving. Whatcha got??) -- maybe some guys and gals take a breath, piece it together and acknowledge we're all just human beings (even Marvel).

[sifighter]

RANT:

I've been bombarded, recently, with so much angst over Marvel's second Civil War event.

I understand Event-Fatigue and character-representation-concerns but I can't fully wrap my head around the flood like vitriol being spat at Marvel for their efforts to adapt. And the internet-community is just so quick to hate-bond.
I see readers arguing mistreatment of their favorite characters within the primary event book but those same characters are redeemed, further explored or examined in satellite and/or solo titles, tying into the event proper.

People argue: Bad Writing. But we're so quick to accuse and demean.

Perhaps some readers may consider acknowledging the opportunity this medium (monthly comics) affords both the publisher's creative teams and the readership to adapt. There is a curve we're afforded. There are so many saying "Carol is a villain. She's horrible. Her character is being assassinated!" but it seems those same readers dismiss the content of her solo title and how those writers are providing a unique and possibly unexpected perspective giving further insight into her mind frame that the event title could not provide.
And when I say "could not provide" -- I say that because the event title juggles so many more characters and interactions with a very limited page count. Opting out of that additional content (satellite books) is ...optional. And with the internet available?? Folks don't even have to spend money to learn whats going on. I don't condone that behavior but it happens. But for those who want to know/understand further? Its available. Lucky Us!

Readers argue inconsistent personalities, but these characters are people, and people adapt to their respective environments and comfort zones and "act" differently -- particularly in times of emotional stress. Perhaps that writers are taking that into consideration. They're not infallible.
On top of that, consider the translation factor (or loss of) from word to art. We all have our preferences, aesthetically speaking. Some love Greg Land. Some think he's a hack. Its all relative. But different styles convey emotion differently and one can't help but wonder if the furrowed brow and gritted teeth of our protagonist IS, in fact, intended to appear as GRRRRR as the artist in question has presented. Perhaps that particular artist's strength lies with camera angles or layout or action sequences rather than subtle emotional moments. Not everyone out there can be David Marquez.

My point here is, perhaps rather than chastising Marvel for granting Kelly Thompson an opportunity to explain She Hulk's coma further (Why should I have to read A-Force??) by elaborating on the details of that particular battle or dismissing the fact that Christos Gage (what? I shouldn't have to read Captain Marvel!!) has opted to expose readers to the unexpected vulnerability and loneliness Carol is experiencing beneath her hard candy exterior, or even the fact that Civil War is now extended to 8 issues with a NEW ending (perhaps more preferable?)- we might rather commend these decisions(?) that we so self righteously argue in person and online (Why? How? What?!), because they are essentially adapting.

Whether it was planned all along at one of their famed summits (we'll reveal She Hulk got Thanos slammed later. Suspense!) or if they are literally bobbing and weaving the reader reception to improve our collective experience and explain the many Yeah BUT HEY!'s we continually protest ad nauseam (****! They're pissed. Kelly -- get in here! The missile thing isn't jiving. Whatcha got??) -- maybe some guys and gals take a breath, piece it together and acknowledge we're all just human beings (even Marvel).

You know I have to say that both agree and disagree with your argument here.

I agree people probably shouldn't get to angry about some character portrayals mainly because those can change all the time given the whim of the writer or as story evolves. The same can be said for CWII as an event focusing on many players while the tie-ins and mini-series are allowed to go a little further in depth with aspects of the argument themselves as well as the a specific characters state of mind that may not be able to made clear in the event itself. These in some way can in rich the experience and overall make for a much better and well defined event. In fact I personally enjoyed Greg Pak's The Fallen one-shot simply for all the great stuff to his run on Hulk.

However, we shouldn't need to do that if the writer of the event in question were making things clearer or perhaps better at conveying these things. We are supposed to pick between Captain Marvel and Ironman, and in the most recent issues of the event we've seen her double down on her plan even as cracks begin to appear and looking a little tyrannical(best word I could think of at the moment, if you have a better one please inform me) while her ongoing has to explain her state of mind which is a lot more reasonable. That opens the question of why Bendis isn't doing that himself and why we're forced to go read a seperate story to connect the dots that he left. Not to mention while people can choose to read those series some may not simply because they are not interested in that character or team, not everyone who reads Civil War II wants to read A-force or Captain Marvel so they miss those explanations entirely. I think a good metaphor this would be having to watch an episode of a tv show to understand the motivation of a character in a movie and while some people may be fine with that others won't be.

[DurararaFTW]

RANT:

I've been bombarded, recently, with so much angst over Marvel's second Civil War event.

I understand Event-Fatigue and character-representation-concerns but I can't fully wrap my head around the flood like vitriol being spat at Marvel for their efforts to adapt. And the internet-community is just so quick to hate-bond.
I see readers arguing mistreatment of their favorite characters within the primary event book but those same characters are redeemed, further explored or examined in satellite and/or solo titles, tying into the event proper.

People argue: Bad Writing. But we're so quick to accuse and demean.

Perhaps some readers may consider acknowledging the opportunity this medium (monthly comics) affords both the publisher's creative teams and the readership to adapt. There is a curve we're afforded. There are so many saying "Carol is a villain. She's horrible. Her character is being assassinated!" but it seems those same readers dismiss the content of her solo title and how those writers are providing a unique and possibly unexpected perspective giving further insight into her mind frame that the event title could not provide.
And when I say "could not provide" -- I say that because the event title juggles so many more characters and interactions with a very limited page count. Opting out of that additional content (satellite books) is ...optional. And with the internet available?? Folks don't even have to spend money to learn whats going on. I don't condone that behavior but it happens. But for those who want to know/understand further? Its available. Lucky Us!

Readers argue inconsistent personalities, but these characters are people, and people adapt to their respective environments and comfort zones and "act" differently -- particularly in times of emotional stress. Perhaps that writers are taking that into consideration. They're not infallible.
On top of that, consider the translation factor (or loss of) from word to art. We all have our preferences, aesthetically speaking. Some love Greg Land. Some think he's a hack. Its all relative. But different styles convey emotion differently and one can't help but wonder if the furrowed brow and gritted teeth of our protagonist IS, in fact, intended to appear as GRRRRR as the artist in question has presented. Perhaps that particular artist's strength lies with camera angles or layout or action sequences rather than subtle emotional moments. Not everyone out there can be David Marquez.

My point here is, perhaps rather than chastising Marvel for granting Kelly Thompson an opportunity to explain She Hulk's coma further (Why should I have to read A-Force??) by elaborating on the details of that particular battle or dismissing the fact that Christos Gage (what? I shouldn't have to read Captain Marvel!!) has opted to expose readers to the unexpected vulnerability and loneliness Carol is experiencing beneath her hard candy exterior, or even the fact that Civil War is now extended to 8 issues with a NEW ending (perhaps more preferable?)- we might rather commend these decisions(?) that we so self righteously argue in person and online (Why? How? What?!), because they are essentially adapting.

Whether it was planned all along at one of their famed summits (we'll reveal She Hulk got Thanos slammed later. Suspense!) or if they are literally bobbing and weaving the reader reception to improve our collective experience and explain the many Yeah BUT HEY!'s we continually protest ad nauseam (****! They're pissed. Kelly -- get in here! The missile thing isn't jiving. Whatcha got??) -- maybe some guys and gals take a breath, piece it together and acknowledge we're all just human beings (even Marvel).

Deciding to that of all the people in the world Henry Gyrich is the one she should be taking instructions from does not absolve her of responsiblity for everything she says and does, rather it, all on it's own merits, speaks negatively of her character.

Also, the event comic so far hasn't been all fighting all the time. It's taking forever to get around to the actual civil war, and it is mostly Carol and Tony talking. I disagree that there is no room for Carol to formulate her argument there.

[Mike82]

RANT:

I've been bombarded, recently, with so much angst over Marvel's second Civil War event.

I understand Event-Fatigue and character-representation-concerns but I can't fully wrap my head around the flood like vitriol being spat at Marvel for their efforts to adapt. And the internet-community is just so quick to hate-bond.
I see readers arguing mistreatment of their favorite characters within the primary event book but those same characters are redeemed, further explored or examined in satellite and/or solo titles, tying into the event proper.

People argue: Bad Writing. But we're so quick to accuse and demean.

Perhaps some readers may consider acknowledging the opportunity this medium (monthly comics) affords both the publisher's creative teams and the readership to adapt. There is a curve we're afforded. There are so many saying "Carol is a villain. She's horrible. Her character is being assassinated!" but it seems those same readers dismiss the content of her solo title and how those writers are providing a unique and possibly unexpected perspective giving further insight into her mind frame that the event title could not provide.
And when I say "could not provide" -- I say that because the event title juggles so many more characters and interactions with a very limited page count. Opting out of that additional content (satellite books) is ...optional. And with the internet available?? Folks don't even have to spend money to learn whats going on. I don't condone that behavior but it happens. But for those who want to know/understand further? Its available. Lucky Us!

Readers argue inconsistent personalities, but these characters are people, and people adapt to their respective environments and comfort zones and "act" differently -- particularly in times of emotional stress. Perhaps that writers are taking that into consideration. They're not infallible.
On top of that, consider the translation factor (or loss of) from word to art. We all have our preferences, aesthetically speaking. Some love Greg Land. Some think he's a hack. Its all relative. But different styles convey emotion differently and one can't help but wonder if the furrowed brow and gritted teeth of our protagonist IS, in fact, intended to appear as GRRRRR as the artist in question has presented. Perhaps that particular artist's strength lies with camera angles or layout or action sequences rather than subtle emotional moments. Not everyone out there can be David Marquez.

My point here is, perhaps rather than chastising Marvel for granting Kelly Thompson an opportunity to explain She Hulk's coma further (Why should I have to read A-Force??) by elaborating on the details of that particular battle or dismissing the fact that Christos Gage (what? I shouldn't have to read Captain Marvel!!) has opted to expose readers to the unexpected vulnerability and loneliness Carol is experiencing beneath her hard candy exterior, or even the fact that Civil War is now extended to 8 issues with a NEW ending (perhaps more preferable?)- we might rather commend these decisions(?) that we so self righteously argue in person and online (Why? How? What?!), because they are essentially adapting.

Whether it was planned all along at one of their famed summits (we'll reveal She Hulk got Thanos slammed later. Suspense!) or if they are literally bobbing and weaving the reader reception to improve our collective experience and explain the many Yeah BUT HEY!'s we continually protest ad nauseam (****! They're pissed. Kelly -- get in here! The missile thing isn't jiving. Whatcha got??) -- maybe some guys and gals take a breath, piece it together and acknowledge we're all just human beings (even Marvel).

I understand the need to give writers the opportunity in showing how emotionally vulnerable Carol is or Bendis not wanting to step on their toes, but Bendis needs to at least give us something. Carol needs to be shown at least somewhat likeable. I don't care if I can get something for free. If I have no interest or simply no need for something, than I'm not going to get it, even if it's free. Events also sell a lot more than tie-in issues. Add a result, you're getting a disproportionate amount of people who are hating Carol rather liking her. The simple truth is that Bendis is doing a terrible job in giving us a mere glimpse into Carol's motivations. I only wonder what kind of gymnastics Christie Gage would have to go through to salvage Carol's character after Civil War #4.

Also, the idea that Bendis hasn't been able to focus much on Carol because of too many characters is absurd and downright laughable since she is the one driving the event.

Civil War #8 was probably added to make more money and Marvel responding to the hate Carol has been getting. Congrats to Marquez and his wife, but babies just don't happen. Marvel knew about this for a long time. Marvel could have easily worked around that instead of adding another issue.

[Supermutant2099]

R
My point here is, perhaps rather than chastising Marvel for granting Kelly Thompson an opportunity to explain She Hulk's coma further (Why should I have to read A-Force??) by elaborating on the details of that particular battle or dismissing the fact that Christos Gage (what? I shouldn't have to read Captain Marvel!!) has opted to expose readers to the unexpected vulnerability and loneliness Carol is experiencing beneath her hard candy exterior, or even the fact that Civil War is now extended to 8 issues with a NEW ending (perhaps more preferable?)- we might rather commend these decisions(?) that we so self righteously argue in person and online (Why? How? What?!), because they are essentially adapting.

Whether it was planned all along at one of their famed summits (we'll reveal She Hulk got Thanos slammed later. Suspense!) or if they are literally bobbing and weaving the reader reception to improve our collective experience and explain the many Yeah BUT HEY!'s we continually protest ad nauseam (****! They're pissed. Kelly -- get in here! The missile thing isn't jiving. Whatcha got??) -- maybe some guys and gals take a breath, piece it together and acknowledge we're all just human beings (even Marvel).

That is the problem with it. Thanos busting she-hulk spin is a big moment in the fight as much as War Machine getting punched. We not shown till 3 months down line? I mean anyone reading just main series will be confused. Anyone reading from trade going to be confused. There were fans that didn't know what happen to she-hulk in issue 1 because they didn't get to read the fcbd. All you had to do is show her getting punch much like rhodney issue 1 if that was the plan. Problem solved. A-Force still gets to expand on the scene but I guess its more important ads instead of taking one of them out for that. Just makes this look worse as badly executed or thought out.
To Carol letting tie ins explaining more of character is fine but doesn't excuse writer not seemingly getting character or badly explaining where they are coming from in the story. If you are not reading Captain Marvel tie ins Carol looking like a real rhymes with witch.

[theoneandonly]

can Ulysses power be a monkey paw wish and can he be one of the reasons timeline has been gravely damaged? they should have shown a occasion when a prediction was not acted on and what happened then but now I guess it's too late as we have gone past that stage and now we will just have both sides trying to bash each others heads in