Civil War II (Spoilers)

[jackolover]

You know I have to say that both agree and disagree with your argument here.

I agree people probably shouldn't get to angry about some character portrayals mainly because those can change all the time given the whim of the writer or as story evolves. The same can be said for CWII as an event focusing on many players while the tie-ins and mini-series are allowed to go a little further in depth with aspects of the argument themselves as well as the a specific characters state of mind that may not be able to made clear in the event itself. These in some way can in rich the experience and overall make for a much better and well defined event. In fact I personally enjoyed Greg Pak's The Fallen one-shot simply for all the great stuff to his run on Hulk.

However, we shouldn't need to do that if the writer of the event in question were making things clearer or perhaps better at conveying these things. We are supposed to pick between Captain Marvel and Ironman, and in the most recent issues of the event we've seen her double down on her plan even as cracks begin to appear and looking a little tyrannical(best word I could think of at the moment, if you have a better one please inform me) while her ongoing has to explain her state of mind which is a lot more reasonable. That opens the question of why Bendis isn't doing that himself and why we're forced to go read a seperate story to connect the dots that he left. Not to mention while people can choose to read those series some may not simply because they are not interested in that character or team, not everyone who reads Civil War II wants to read A-force or Captain Marvel so they miss those explanations entirely. I think a good metaphor this would be having to watch an episode of a tv show to understand the motivation of a character in a movie and while some people may be fine with that others won't be.

I'm comfortable that tie-ins fill the void left by the scrimming style of the main Event book, because it's an Event. What do we think the tie-ins are there for? I've always acknowledge that tie-ins are neccesary to the event, and I'm surprised other people haven't recognized this because of past Event dynamics.

What I am feeling flat about in this Event, is that we haven't got a fully formed mystery being imbedded in the story, enough that it makes us come back to see if the next book has more about this something mysterious. All we are being told as an audience is that Ulysses' predictive visions are extremely accurate, so Tony should just shut up and sit down. I would have liked if the Road to Civil War books were pointing to some problem that nobody has recognised yet, but that hasn't been the case. All those RTCW books look like they were a waste of time, and there is no mysterious phenomena going on in the background, and CWII is just some excuse for super heroes to fight super heroes, but that's so boring. We really need some viable premise here to make this Event compelling.

[jackolover]

can Ulysses power be a monkey paw wish and can he be one of the reasons timeline has been gravely damaged? they should have shown a occasion when a prediction was not acted on and what happened then but now I guess it's too late as we have gone past that stage and now we will just have both sides trying to bash each others heads in

You know it's interesting Jean Grey could not read Ulysses mind, because his power negates any reading of time related thinking processes. If Ulysses' powers cannot be psionically detected, is he altering the timeline with each and every prediction? He could be rebusting time again, simply by his mind existing?

[theoneandonly]

You know it's interesting Jean Grey could not read Ulysses mind, because his power negates any reading of time related thinking processes. If Ulysses' powers cannot be psionically detected, is he altering the timeline with each and every prediction? He could be rebusting time again, simply by his mind existing?

if so then Tony will be proved right and he will be a greater danger than anything he has foreseen till now . At some point every one has to wonder whether he is seeing a future or creating one by foreseeing one. is the future revealing itself through his visions or is he foreseeing a possible future out of countless probable futures.

[DurararaFTW]

So Choosing Sides is the story that should've exemplified CWII from the very beginning, instead of throwing Celestial, Thanos, Brood, Chitauri, and God knows what other alien invasions at Earth to make Ulysses suddenly objectively necessary for the every day survival of the planet.

[jackolover]

if so then Tony will be proved right and he will be a greater danger than anything he has foreseen till now . At some point every one has to wonder whether he is seeing a future or creating one by foreseeing one. is the future revealing itself through his visions or is he foreseeing a possible future out of countless probable futures.

It's scary when you describe it that way. Self fulfilling predictions?

[jackolover]

So Choosing Sides is the story that should've exemplified CWII from the very beginning, instead of throwing Celestial, Thanos, Brood, Chitauri, and God knows what other alien invasions at Earth to make Ulysses suddenly objectively necessary for the every day survival of the planet.

Why would Choosing Sides be so essential? To date I think it's irrelevant.

[DurararaFTW]

Why would Choosing Sides be so essential? To date I think it's irrelevant.

It is irrelevant, but I prefer the way it sees the moral quandary. Trying to tell Carol to stop because the visions might be wrong 1% of the time is stupid, the problem should be that all this predictive justice is filling jailcells with people hadn't done anything yet, and now probably never will. How that ought to be handled is what they ought to be arguing about. But instead you got a Celestial horde suddenly appearing out of nowhere to destroy the planet and the Hulk suddenly not just Hulking out and being uncontrollable but actively laying waste to the entire superhero community. These things obviously would not happen if Ulysses didn't need events that required his visions to save the planet from. Carol should be defending her view on the matter without the Marvel Universe itself actively helping make her point.

[Daredevil is Legend]

War Machine dying is still stupid and a waste.

[theoneandonly]

It's scary when you describe it that way. Self fulfilling predictions?

they seem so especially when cosmic entities themselves have admitted in certain instances that even they cannot foresee the myriad aspects of the future precisely as seen when lord chaos and master order admitted that even they don't know whether their machinations to stop deaths champion will succeed or not and when eternity in the end series admitted that he did not foresee the advent of Akhenaten which had thrown reality askew. if they can't predict the future with certainty how can Ulysses hope to do so without disruption of reality? I won't be surprised if they will have to combine all their efforts to stop the time stream from disruption due to his inept meddling or maybe he will be driven mad by the visions and become a threat himself and it would require combined efforts of all heroes to stop him.

[Michael Watkins]

if so then Tony will be proved right and he will be a greater danger than anything he has foreseen till now . At some point every one has to wonder whether he is seeing a future or creating one by foreseeing one. is the future revealing itself through his visions or is he foreseeing a possible future out of countless probable futures.

no, Tony would not be proven right. if Ulysses is creating outcomes then Carol's involvement is irrelevant. Carol is doing the logical thing when she tries to prevent disaster. Tony is just being a naysayer. if they were to just do nothing, who is to say what would happen?

[jackolover]

they seem so especially when cosmic entities themselves have admitted in certain instances that even they cannot foresee the myriad aspects of the future precisely as seen when lord chaos and master order admitted that even they don't know whether their machinations to stop deaths champion will succeed or not and when eternity in the end series admitted that he did not foresee the advent of Akhenaten which had thrown reality askew. if they can't predict the future with certainty how can Ulysses hope to do so without disruption of reality? I won't be surprised if they will have to combine all their efforts to stop the time stream from disruption due to his inept meddling or maybe he will be driven mad by the visions and become a threat himself and it would require combined efforts of all heroes to stop him.

Ulysses seems rather innocuous, so that if you lock him in a room, (like they did to Nostradamus, in SHIELD), that should take care of his threat. But if the simple fact that he exists, and his power is really that he changes reality, then you really have to eliminate him from reality.

[jackolover]

no, Tony would not be proven right. if Ulysses is creating outcomes then Carol's involvement is irrelevant. Carol is doing the logical thing when she tries to prevent disaster. Tony is just being a naysayer. if they were to just do nothing, who is to say what would happen?

It could be Carol is being led by the nose by Ulysses, being his ambassador, perhaps? Ulysses groupie? But I have to wonder why Karnak had not been able to discern Ulysses was more than just a seer, but perhaps a reality warper? At this stage I feel if Karnak could not tell there was more to Ulysses than meets the eye, Ulysses is either a very good manipulator, or, he is what has been shown so far, just a simple future predictor.

[jackolover]

So far Civil War II has not shown anything overt, much like the Original Sin Event which really didn't have any gravitis to speak of either. But CWII is creepy, in that you really shouldn't have future predictions handed out to the world willy nilly like this. So far we haven't seen anything of such grave importance come from a world being handed knowledge they shouldn't have, (much like in Original Sin, knowledge was kept secret until it all tumbled out from the Watcher one day, and Nick Fury didn't like it). And like OS, all we are maybe going to get is fallout from this knowledge? A certain mistrust; that everyone carries the capacity to do wrong in them?

[Tayswift]

It could be Carol is being led by the nose by Ulysses, being his ambassador, perhaps? Ulysses groupie? But I have to wonder why Karnak had not been able to discern Ulysses was more than just a seer, but perhaps a reality warper? At this stage I feel if Karnak could not tell there was more to Ulysses than meets the eye, Ulysses is either a very good manipulator, or, he is what has been shown so far, just a simple future predictor.

maybe ullysses doesn't have th eintention of manipulate and do it unconciously...

[theoneandonly]

no, Tony would not be proven right. if Ulysses is creating outcomes then Carol's involvement is irrelevant. Carol is doing the logical thing when she tries to prevent disaster. Tony is just being a naysayer. if they were to just do nothing, who is to say what would happen?

what do you mean that Carol is irrelevant when she is the one who has adopted him as a pet project and backed him to the full even to the extent of ignoring every time Tony tried to talk sense to her? if Ulysses caused a major devastating event through his visions being acted upon as if they are the only truth then she can't hide behind the excuse that she was acting for the best.