Don't Blink! Wonder Woman vs Doomsday

[enish]

Hello everyone,

I thought I might start a thread in which we could discuss the fight sequence of Wonder Woman vs Doomsday, things we might have missed and details on which we can have a better view now.

Personnally, there is this scene from Kal-El's point of view. I have always wondered why Doomsday would send debris on Wonder Woman before launching onto her, but it turns out it was not debris, Doomsday was throwing Wonder Woman herself onto the ground, from which she recovers quite quickly.
Here are some screen caps of the sequence:

First I thought he was sending some debris, or maybe a car at her, but I've replayed the sequence a couple of times, and with a better resolution, It turns out that it is in fact Wonder Woman he is throwing:
wwvsdd1.jpg

The thing in the circle is her:
wwvsdd2.jpg

It looks like she made some acrobatic moves to recover and then jumped right at Doomsday:
wwvsdd3.jpg

I would have posted a video, but I'm not sure to what extent it is illegal to extract a portion of a movie so I thought I might stick to screen caps for now.

For those who still doubt about WW's power in BVS, this sequence proves that she's more than capable and is indeed very powerful and a match to Superman.
Superman got thrown away several times, and he did not recover as fast as Wonder Woman did. Some might say that her shield absorbed most of the shock, it might be true.

But If one of us were holding a shield to stop a car, we would be crushed anyway, so no matter how durable a shield may be, if the person holding it cannot withstand the amount of energy, it is pretty useless.

[enish]

Was Wonder Woman flying at some point?

Here's the sequence that got me thinking, it is right after she used the shockwave attack for the second time:

1)WWfly1.jpg

2)wwfly2.jpg

3)wwfly3.jpg

What do you think?

[Vanguard-01]

I'm not sure about whether she's flying or not. As far as I'm concerned, the best evidence that she can fly comes from the part where she swoops in and knocks Doomsday's leg out from under him with her shield. She appears to skim along the ground in a very unnatural way. For my money, it looks like she was somehow defying gravity there. Well, that or she had rollers in her boots

As far as power levels go? Diana shows four strength displays and several durability displays.

For strength?

1.) Doomsday throws a car at her and she slices it in half easily. Some might argue that it was the sword doing the cutting and not Diana. This is incorrect. Physics states that it doesn't matter how sharp your blade is, if you can't apply the pressure needed to break the surface tension and draw the blade through the substance in question you're not going to cut it. All those comic book scenes where Wolverine cuts Hulk with his claws? Nonsense. It doesn't matter how sharp those claws are, Wolverine needs to be strong enough to pull them through Hulk's flesh. Hulk's flesh laughs at bullets, artillery shells, and missiles: all things that can do far more damage than Wolverine's muscles. Hence? Wolverine can't cut Hulk no matter how sharp is claws are.

Give Diana's sword to Batman and invite HIM to cut a car in half, and he won't be able to do it. At least not in one clean swipe like Diana did. It was Diana's strength that allowed her to cut that car in half.

2.) She blocked Doomsday's punch with her sword. Physics says that Diana would have to exert equal or greater force against Doomsday's arm in order to stop it like that. Hence? She exerted enough force to stop a punch from a creature that was knocking Superman around with ease. There is no reason to assume Doomsday threw a weaker punch at Diana. Doomsday is a rabid animal. Pretty much every strike he throws can be assumed to be as strong as he can manage because he is ALWAYS going for the kill.

3.) She cut off Doomsday's hand. See Example 1. Doomsday's flesh survived a nuclear blast, bullets from Batman's plane, and multiple punches from Superman. For Diana to cut through flesh that tough (again, with a single clean strike) would have required her to be extremely strong indeed.

Once again, Batman could not have achieved the same feat

4.) And she held Doomsday immobile with the Lasso for several seconds. Sure, she lost her grip eventually, but Doomsday was getting stronger by the second at that point. Some might argue that it was the Lasso holding him, but that makes no sense. Why would Diana have to brace herself against the ground and haul back on the rope if the rope was doing all the work of keeping him immobile?

Durability? She took several punches from Doomsday and SMILED at him after one of them. Some have argued that Diana didn't survive those impacts, it was her shield doing all the work. This is also impossible. At one point, we see Doomsday punch her out of midair as she leapt (flew?) at him. In that situation, her shield would've been no defense at all. With her feet off the ground, the shield would not be able to brace against anything. Even if Doomsday DID punch the shield, it wouldn't have been able to properly absorb the impact. If anything, the punch would've pushed the shield back at Diana, causing her to smack herself in the face with her own shield.

We also saw Diana take a heat vision blast from Doomsday immediately after she cut off his hand. She did not have her shield at that time. That was after she lost it in the fight. So unless Diana got her bracelets up in time to intercept the blast, then she took that blast full on and wasn't hurt by it.

Speed is a little harder to gauge. Diana definitely came flying at Doomsday at pretty extreme speeds. When she rushed at him at one point, you can hear a faint "Whoosh" sound and a slight blurring around her. In movies and TV, these effects almost always denote some degree of superhuman speed is at work. So it's pretty obvious that she's fast. How fast? Unknown. We may have to wait until the JL movie so we can see how her speed compares to Flash's speed.

The important thing about this fight? Diana went toe-to-toe with a monster that could survive nukes and an onslaught from Superman. At no point did she appear hurt or even tired from her exertions. At the end of the fight, she wasn't even dirty or cut or bruised. She looked for all the world like she could've gone another ten rounds with Doomsday, and it's important to remember that this may very well have been the first major fight she'd been in for the better part of a century. This was a "rusty" Diana we saw. In future movies, when she will no doubt be getting into even better fighting shape? She's probably going to be even MORE formidable.

[richalex]

Though this doesn't really have anything to do with her fighting Doomsday himself, don't forget Diana notices Superman flying back to the scene of the fight before we even see him appear on screen. She turns and looks at the sky and then we hear the sonic boom, and Kal arriving. This I would think proves she has enhanced senses.

[BiteTheBullet]

The reason I wasn't impressed with the fight with Doomsday, and not just from the Wondy action scenes in it, is that it has too many cut aways within the scenes, many times in split seconds so that we do not see a really 'clean' action sequence.

When you have to slow motion it down after the fact by fans to see what really happened, then in my opinion that doesn't make a good fight sequence.

For that reason I was very disappointed with the fight scenes in BvS. Synder has made a living on great action sequences in his movies, and this one was just blah to me. Even Batman's fighting sequence in the warehouse was too fast and too much cut aways within the fight to even make it look plausible that Batman was doing everything that he was doing. If Synder had used more of his trademark slow motion sequences, I think the fights would have been better.

I think in the Doomsday fight, all the CGI used was more of a detriment to the actual fight.

[Lex Luthor]

Though this doesn't really have anything to do with her fighting Doomsday himself, don't forget Diana notices Superman flying back to the scene of the fight before we even see him appear on screen. She turns and looks at the sky and then we hear the sonic boom, and Kal arriving. This I would think proves she has enhanced senses.

Also i believe it was hinted at that Diana heard Bruce speaking to Alfred during the party

[Vanguard-01]

When you have to slow motion it down after the fact by fans to see what really happened, then in my opinion that doesn't make a good fight sequence.

I didn't need to use slow motion at all to understand what was happening. I just payed attention to the fight and noticed things. Sure, I watched it five times in theaters, but I only recall seeing one thing on my second viewing that I didn't notice the first time. That was the part where Diana got blasted by Doomsday's heat vision after cutting off his hand. I guess the first time I must've sneezed or blinked at the wrong time, or something. The second time I noticed it because I was actively on the lookout for durability feats for Diana after I saw a few people here commenting that Diana never took any real hits from Doomsday.

But I didn't need to make use of any special technology to draw my observations is the real point here.

If Synder had used more of his trademark slow motion sequences, I think the fights would have been better.

For the warehouse fight? Maybe a little. But the point of that scene was to make it look real. Slow motion tends to downplay that sense of reality. It makes it seem less real and more "obviously Hollywood." In Chinese wushu movies, they very rarely make use of slow motion for that very reason. The fight was supposed to look frantic and chaotic.

Using slow motion in the Doomsday fight? Obviously, the realism argument doesn't work here. There's nothing realistic about two godlike beings and one mortal man fighting a fifteen-foot tall beast that shoots lasers. But this was a fight that, once again, was supposed to look more like a desperate struggle against a beast against which they were barely holding their own. Slow motion kinda destroys that sense of urgency, IMO.

I think in the Doomsday fight, all the CGI used was more of a detriment to the actual fight.

Soooo, they should've built a REAL fifteen-foot tall monster and had Gal and Henry get really hit by it? CGI is the only way to do a fight like that. CGI exists to make things that are impossible in the real world a reality in the movies.

[BiteTheBullet]

I didn't need to use slow motion at all to understand what was happening. I just payed attention to the fight and noticed things. Sure, I watched it five times in theaters, but I only recall seeing one thing on my second viewing that I didn't notice the first time. That was the part where Diana got blasted by Doomsday's heat vision after cutting off his hand. I guess the first time I must've sneezed or blinked at the wrong time, or something. The second time I noticed it because I was actively on the lookout for durability feats for Diana after I saw a few people here commenting that Diana never took any real hits from Doomsday.

But I didn't need to make use of any special technology to draw my observations is the real point here.



For the warehouse fight? Maybe a little. But the point of that scene was to make it look real. Slow motion tends to downplay that sense of reality. It makes it seem less real and more "obviously Hollywood." In Chinese wushu movies, they very rarely make use of slow motion for that very reason. The fight was supposed to look frantic and chaotic.

Using slow motion in the Doomsday fight? Obviously, the realism argument doesn't work here. There's nothing realistic about two godlike beings and one mortal man fighting a fifteen-foot tall beast that shoots lasers. But this was a fight that, once again, was supposed to look more like a desperate struggle against a beast against which they were barely holding their own. Slow motion kinda destroys that sense of urgency, IMO.



Soooo, they should've built a REAL fifteen-foot tall monster and had Gal and Henry get really hit by it? CGI is the only way to do a fight like that. CGI exists to make things that are impossible in the real world a reality in the movies.

Basically it boils down to "To each his own".

I don't think you can argue the 'realism' of the Batman fight versus the inherent 'unrealism' of the Doomsday fight and just say because!!

The Batman fight would have been better for some slow-mo scenes in my opinion because alot of what he did was inherently bulls**t. I would have liked to have seen how he disabled all those guns within a second versus us all seeing him shoot his gadgets off screen. Also, all of a sudden Batmans suit is totally bullet proof where it doesn't knock him back or maybe daze him a bit?!? A bullet at point blank range to the back of his head and he just shrugs it off? Batman figured out how to maneuver in a suit that is totally bulletproof yet be flexible enough to fight as if he was wearing his pajamas? And we are going for Synders realism as the reason for this? Hell, Bruce Wayne figured out how to do the bullets and bracelets part of Wonder Woman's schtick without having to have the skill to use it. Just wear the suit!

And I love kung fu flicks and don't need the slo-mo for that genre. I was just hoping we would get some of that in this movie. He did it in the Watchman fight scenes and I don't think that distracted me from liking that.

And strawman man argument aside, I do realize that there is no 15 foot actor to play Doomsday. I just thought the fight looked a little sloppy in the CGI department. It's only an opinion, but you don't have to disrespect mine by trying to turn my point as some sort of dumb argument, or at the very least a condescending tone.

[Vanguard-01]

Basically it boils down to "To each his own".

Fair enough.

I don't think you can argue the 'realism' of the Batman fight versus the inherent 'unrealism' of the Doomsday fight and just say because!!

One is a fight between beings that don't exist in the real world. One is a fight between regular humans with weapons and fighting skills that do, indeed, exist in the real world. I'm much more forgiving of unrealistic elements in an obviously fantastical scene than I am in a scene that could, theoretically happen in real life.

The Batman fight would have been better for some slow-mo scenes in my opinion because alot of what he did was inherently bulls**t. I would have liked to have seen how he disabled all those guns within a second versus us all seeing him shoot his gadgets off screen.

I saw that as being almost a POV shot for the thugs. They had no idea how Batman did that. Those gadgets just seemed to appear on their guns. I found that much more fun than just seeing Batman reach into his belt and ninja-throw a bunch of CGI gadgets at them and have them all land perfectly on their guns. Just IMO, of course.

Also, all of a sudden Batmans suit is totally bullet proof where it doesn't knock him back or maybe daze him a bit?!? A bullet at point blank range to the back of his head and he just shrugs it off? Batman figured out how to maneuver in a suit that is totally bulletproof yet be flexible enough to fight as if he was wearing his pajamas? And we are going for Synders realism as the reason for this? Hell, Bruce Wayne figured out how to do the bullets and bracelets part of Wonder Woman's schtick without having to have the skill to use it. Just wear the suit!

The entire suit is clearly not bulletproof, or that thug wouldn't have been able to stab him in the arm. It was the cowl, alone that appears to be bulletproof. Probably some other areas also have armored plating, just like real-world body armor. Our soldiers don't wear bulletproof armor from head to toe. They wear a jacket that protects the most important areas (their vital organs) and a helmet that protects their heads. Batman's arms, clearly, were not important armored. His legs probably weren't either. Which explains the mobility.

And I love kung fu flicks and don't need the slo-mo for that genre. I was just hoping we would get some of that in this movie. He did it in the Watchman fight scenes and I don't think that distracted me from liking that.

I don't remember much use of slo-mo in Watchmen, but to be fair, I haven't seen it in a couple years. I'll watch it again to see how those fight scenes compare to BvS and see if I think you're right.

And strawman man argument aside, I do realize that there is no 15 foot actor to play Doomsday. I just thought the fight looked a little sloppy in the CGI department. It's only an opinion, but you don't have to disrespect mine by trying to turn my point as some sort of dumb argument, or at the very least a condescending tone.

I didn't think I was being disrespectful. I just had a hard time wrapping my head around an argument that seemed to boil down to "They shouldn't have used so much CGI in this battle that couldn't possibly have been done any other way."

Now, saying that you found the CGI sloppy is a completely different story. That's addressing the quality of the CGI. Not the CGI itself. I, personally, found the CGI fine. If you didn't, then again we come to "to each his own."

[richalex]

Note to turn this into a Batman thread because its about Diana, however....

The Batman fight would have been better for some slow-mo scenes in my opinion because alot of what he did was inherently bulls**t.

The only thing I would say that was bull in that fight was him casually throwing that crate across the room. The rest seemed pretty "normal To Me"

I would have liked to have seen how he disabled all those guns within a second versus us all seeing him shoot his gadgets off screen.

Its clear as he's coming up through the ground, though the thugs don't realize that he is already above them, that he's throwing magnets at the guns to disable the guns.

Also, all of a sudden Batmans suit is totally bullet proof where it doesn't knock him back or maybe daze him a bit?!? A bullet at point blank range to the back of his head and he just shrugs it off?

We see Alfred working on the Helmet earlier in the movie. I believe he even mentions something about the plating in the helmet? Maybe I misheard him.

Batman figured out how to maneuver in a suit that is totally bulletproof yet be flexible enough to fight as if he was wearing his pajamas?

Well, its clear the whole suit isn't bulletproof as we see him get stabbed in the shoulder.

I dunno. The fight scenes were pretty clear to me. I didn't have a problem following them at all.

[BiteTheBullet]

Fair enough.



I saw that as being almost a POV shot for the thugs. They had no idea how Batman did that. Those gadgets just seemed to appear on their guns. I found that much more fun than just seeing Batman reach into his belt and ninja-throw a bunch of CGI gadgets at them and have them all land perfectly on their guns. Just IMO, of course.



The entire suit is clearly not bulletproof, or that thug wouldn't have been able to stab him in the arm. It was the cowl, alone that appears to be bulletproof. Probably some other areas also have armored plating, just like real-world body armor. Our soldiers don't wear bulletproof armor from head to toe. They wear a jacket that protects the most important areas (their vital organs) and a helmet that protects their heads. Batman's arms, clearly, were not important armored. His legs probably weren't either. Which explains the mobility.



I don't remember much use of slo-mo in Watchmen, but to be fair, I haven't seen it in a couple years. I'll watch it again to see how those fight scenes compare to BvS and see if I think you're right.



I didn't think I was being disrespectful. I just had a hard time wrapping my head around an argument that seemed to boil down to "They shouldn't have used so much CGI in this battle that couldn't possibly have been done any other way."

Now, saying that you found the CGI sloppy is a completely different story. That's addressing the quality of the CGI. Not the CGI itself. I, personally, found the CGI fine. If you didn't, then again we come to "to each his own."

I am not sure if you can discount his suit as fully bulletproof just because of the knife getting through. We all remember the argument about Diana being invulnerable yet still needs to block items like bullets and knives and the like because they are 'pointy'. Yeah, I know that sounds ridiculous, but then again it's comic book logic. Although in Synders 'realistic world', why would a knife penetrate when bullets couldn't. If I remember the warehouse fight, I believe they were able to get a couple of rounds on him on his body, not just his head. So if the bullets didn't phase him, why would the knife go through?

As far as me wanting to see their guns disabled, I just would have liked to have seen how he comes from underneath them, then manages to perfectly place the gizmos on their weapons within a second. That is the inherent bulls@@t I am talking about, but could have been cool to see in maybe a slo-mo shot, but that is just me.

As far as the mobility is concerned, I just take it as comic book logic. He somehow has a suit that is thin enough to move in as if he wasn't wearing anything and still be resistant to point blank bullets. In fact, the cowl absorbed so much of the bullet that it made me think it was made of Marvels vibranium. I don't think Batman in the comics ever had it so good as the Bat in the BvS movie.

I do think you were being disrespectful to my opinion of the CGI, at least the first time I said so. Maybe I wasn't immediately clear about it, but there was no reason to try to make a statement of mine seem stupid to score a silly point in an argument. I guess sloppy CGI should have been the word used, and for that it is my mistake. I still stand by the sloppy part because of a few factors that I don't like when they have slugfests like these. One is how dark it was which only adds to how difficult it is to see the fight scene clearly, beyond a 2nd or 3rd or even more viewings. Also the action was too fast and the action cuts seemed to last only a second before he moved on to the next action cut. And Doomsday, while growing and increasing in power, made for the poor CGI, in my opinion. This didn't seem like the Doomsday I have read in the comics. Never thought he was the 15 to 20 foot Goliath on screen as he was first written on paper. Doomsday has a pretty good visual based on his comic book appearances, so I was disappointed in his look on the film. He looked more like the Abomination from the Ed Norton Hulk movie than he did from his comic book appearance.

[Pamp_Lusa]

I think nobody doubts that Wonder Woman has super strength and speed, just not on par with Superman, I ctrl+c ctrl+v'ed a quote from Snyder that should've squashed all doubts regarding where she stands in the chain of command, and she wasn't shown to be on par with him in this film. Furthermore, history shows that with the exception of the X-Men, the MVPs in ensemble superhero movies are always White Men and Wonder Woman's not gonna buck the trend by the looks of it

In my opinion, Snyder did a piss-poor job of showing off what Wonder Woman can do in this scene, so much so that enish had to go make a microscopic frame-by-frame analysis. I agree with much of what BiteTheBullet said, it was very dark which along with the breakneck pace made the scene very difficult to follow let alone enjoy. And then they kept shifting the focus to Lois Lane which totally deflated whatever momentum they'd built…Well by the end of the movie I was very-- not satisfied

Also the shield cushioned all the blows she took from Doomsday, pretending otherwise is preposterous, and I noticed she couldn't land a strike unless Superman distracted him, so much for "being the best fighter in the dcu", she certainly didn't look it. We didn't even get to see Wonder Woman spin the lasso, instead it came out of nowhere…Nothing about this cameo was offensively horrible but also nothing about it was good, and that's what's so frustrating about Wonder Woman

[richalex]

I think no one doubts that Wonder Woman has super strength and speed, just not on par with Superman, I ctrl+c ctrl+v'ed a quote from Snyder that should've squashed all doubts regarding where she stands in the chain of command, and she wasn't shown to be on par with him in this film. Furthermore, history shows that with the exception of the X-Men, the MVPs in ensemble superhero movies are always White Men and Wonder Woman's not gonna buck the trend by the looks of it

In my opinion, Snyder did a piss-poor job of showing off what Wonder Woman can do in this scene, so much so that enish had to go make a microscopic frame-by-frame analysis. I agree with much of what BiteTheBullet said, it was very dark which along with the breakneck pace made the scene very difficult to follow let alone enjoy. And then they kept shifting the focus to Lois Lane which totally deflated whatever momentum they had built…Well by the end of the movie I was very, very-- not satisfied

Also the shield cushioned all the blows she took from Doomsday, pretending otherwise is preposterous, and I noticed she couldn't land a strike unless Superman distracted him, so much for "being the best fighter in the dcu", she certainly didn't look it. We didn't even get to see Wonder Woman spin the lasso, instead it came out of nowhere…Nothing about this cameo was offensively horrible but also nothing about it was good, and that's what's so frustrating about Wonder Woman...

So when it is shown her Landing before Clark even gets there and knocks Doomsday off of his feet, or when she actually Cuts Doomsday's hand off, and Clark is no where around because he was getting the kryptonite spear, what does that mean then? Oh right....Diana did that on her own and Superman didn't distract Doomsday for her to land a strike.

As for the shield, so you really believe if Bruce picked up her shield, he would have been ok and not utterly destroyed? If thats the case, he should have ducked behind Diana and Clark when Doomsday first let out that blast against them, instead of running away for shelter.

I really don't understand you, lol. When what you've said has been debunked numerous times, repeating it isn't going to change it your way.

[Pamp_Lusa]

Debunked? by who? Batman doesn't have super strength so of course the shield would not avail him... But she does have super strength, which used in conjunction with the shield, allowed Wonder Woman to stand toe-to-toe with Doomsday, the shield is an "equalizer" if you will...what about this is so difficult to comprehend?

[theOVOXO]

Also i believe it was hinted at that Diana heard Bruce speaking to Alfred during the party

I also noticed that after watching the film for the 4th time. I mean how else did she know where Bruce put the device.