Don't Blink! Wonder Woman vs Doomsday

[Outside_85]

52 seconds. You can also watch the scene where Clark and Lois are talking, and Diana is taking on Doomsday in the background. She flies at him several times. And again, what I said was, what she is doing looks identical to flying...maybe it's the movie version of gliding on air currents.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ah-MELvV86g

I read that as her leaping at Doomsday.

[enish]

Then if she is indeed leaping, she must be leaping faster than Clark flies right? Because if Clark is so fast, he should have outflown her, but as you can see, WW arrives at Doomsday slightly before Clark.

The thing that makes me doubt is the she seems to be able to control her landing, now you try to jump like that in real life and control your landing the way she does...I know it's a movie right? But still, I find it very ambiguous.

[dianafan1985]

The reason I wasn't impressed with the fight with Doomsday, and not just from the Wondy action scenes in it, is that it has too many cut aways within the scenes, many times in split seconds so that we do not see a really 'clean' action sequence.

When you have to slow motion it down after the fact by fans to see what really happened, then in my opinion that doesn't make a good fight sequence.

For that reason I was very disappointed with the fight scenes in BvS. Synder has made a living on great action sequences in his movies, and this one was just blah to me. Even Batman's fighting sequence in the warehouse was too fast and too much cut aways within the fight to even make it look plausible that Batman was doing everything that he was doing. If Synder had used more of his trademark slow motion sequences, I think the fights would have been better.

I think in the Doomsday fight, all the CGI used was more of a detriment to the actual fight.

I was saying the same thing my friend. The Lois Lane cuts in the dooms day fight royally pissed me off because she was such an unnecessary element there. What was her purpose? It should have been a clear fight bewteen WW, SPM and doomsday. Then WW should have used the spear to stab him in the heart. That made the most sense. But it is what it is, I suppose.

[dianafan1985]

I read that as her leaping at Doomsday.

I don't know why TPTB chose to not allow her to fly. People have to be guessing and spelling, eventually hoping that they will show Wonder Woman's powers in full. So far in that scene, I saw strength, speed, and stamina, but I wish she was clearly flying as well.

[dianafan1985]

I think nobody doubts that Wonder Woman has super strength and speed, just not on par with Superman, I ctrl+c ctrl+v'ed a quote from Snyder that should've squashed all doubts regarding where she stands in the chain of command, and she wasn't shown to be on par with him in this film. Furthermore, history shows that with the exception of the X-Men, the MVPs in ensemble superhero movies are always White Men and Wonder Woman's not gonna buck the trend by the looks of it

In my opinion, Snyder did a piss-poor job of showing off what Wonder Woman can do in this scene, so much so that enish had to go make a microscopic frame-by-frame analysis. I agree with much of what BiteTheBullet said, it was very dark which along with the breakneck pace made the scene very difficult to follow let alone enjoy. And then they kept shifting the focus to Lois Lane which totally deflated whatever momentum they'd built…Well by the end of the movie I was very-- not satisfied

Also the shield cushioned all the blows she took from Doomsday, pretending otherwise is preposterous, and I noticed she couldn't land a strike unless Superman distracted him, so much for "being the best fighter in the dcu", she certainly didn't look it. We didn't even get to see Wonder Woman spin the lasso, instead it came out of nowhere…Nothing about this cameo was offensively horrible but also nothing about it was good, and that's what's so frustrating about Wonder Woman

Noone has been able to find that quote Lusa; believe me, I have been searching for it all over the internet. Johns, one of the executive producers, did place Wonder Woman and Superman in the same category power-wise. This is in the extras of the DVD as part of the commentary. So there goes that. In the film, she she did exhibit the same great speed and strength in the doomsday battle that Superman exhibited with the same foe. Wonder Woman had enough strength to chop off his hand. She was fast with her blows against Doomsday and was faster in reaching him than Superman as many posters have highlighted, but if this is what you think, then I can't change it brother.

[Vanguard-01]

I was saying the same thing my friend. The Lois Lane cuts in the dooms day fight royally pissed me off because she was such an unnecessary element there. What was her purpose? It should have been a clear fight bewteen WW, SPM and doomsday. Then WW should have used the spear to stab him in the heart. That made the most sense. But it is what it is, I suppose.

Lois' purpose was to get the weapon while the heroes fought to keep Doomsday away from civilians. If Clark or Diana had broken off to go get the spear, Doomsday may have gotten past the one who remained and raised havoc in either Metropolis or Gotham. Her purpose was also the same purpose as Colonel Hardy's and Dr. Hamilton's role in MOS: showing that even ordinary non-super people can stand up and make a difference as well.

Diana could not have used the spear to stab Doomsday. She was too busy holding him still with the Lasso. Even if you take that part away, unless Diana was the one to physically lay hands upon the spear, there is no reason why Clark would have just handed it over to her and let her kill Doomsday. Superman just met Diana. He has no knowledge of her. He doesn't know she's good with a spear. He just knows she has powers similar to his own. Heck, considering that Kryptonians are the ONLY people he's seen with the powers he and Diana possess, he may have had no reason to believe that she wasn't Kryptonian herself, and thus would've been just as affected by the spear as he was.

Furthermore? It is completely out of character for Superman to ask ANYONE to put themselves in danger for his own convenience. He would never just fly up to this woman whose name he doesn't even know and say "Here! This thing hurts me and I have no idea if it'll hurt you too. But I don't want to get hurt or killed, so you take it and try your luck for me! I'll be over here, hoping it all works out!"

I don't know why TPTB chose to not allow her to fly. People have to be guessing and spelling, eventually hoping that they will show Wonder Woman's powers in full. So far in that scene, I saw strength, speed, and stamina, but I wish she was clearly flying as well.

Snyder made it perfectly clear why Diana's powers were left vague. He wanted to give Patty Jenkins the freedom to make her own decisions about how Diana was to be portrayed in her own movie. Jenkins, subsequently, has made it quite clear that we did not see Diana's entire power set in BvS.

For all we know, Diana will either already have flight in her own movie or will acquire that power by the end of the movie. She will probably even demonstrate some other powers in the movie. It's fun to speculate, but some people are jumping to conclusions entirely too quickly, based on very little evidence.

[richalex]

Lois' purpose was to get the weapon while the heroes fought to keep Doomsday away from civilians. If Clark or Diana had broken off to go get the spear, Doomsday may have gotten past the one who remained and raised havoc in either Metropolis or Gotham. Her purpose was also the same purpose as Colonel Hardy's and Dr. Hamilton's role in MOS: showing that even ordinary non-super people can stand up and make a difference as well.

I agree with most of what you said. i think we can agree though that Batman's role was kinda pointless in the end battle. He should have been the one to go get the spear, that he created. When Diana and Clark leapt into battle with Doomsday, Bruce should have taken off after the spear. Instead he was just standing there. After getting it, he could have noted Diana's strength, and told her that maybe she should be the one to try and kill Doomsday. Diana could have given her Lasso to Clark and told him to make sure the Monster didn't move while she kills him.

[Outside_85]

Then if she is indeed leaping, she must be leaping faster than Clark flies right? Because if Clark is so fast, he should have outflown her, but as you can see, WW arrives at Doomsday slightly before Clark.

The thing that makes me doubt is the she seems to be able to control her landing, now you try to jump like that in real life and control your landing the way she does...I know it's a movie right? But still, I find it very ambiguous.

She also takes off before him. But aside that it is simply to do with Diana having a much greater initial acceleration when she sets off while Clark has to gradually accelerate over the course of his flight... it's like comparing a bike rider to a sprinter, the sprinter will in most cases get ahead of the bike initially, but will be over taken eventually when the bike has gotten up to speed.

I believe that is to do with Diana remaining airborn for so long that she has the time to maneuver herself into position, also I attribute it to her simply having enough agility and practice to pull these kinds of moves off, no different from how Batman often appears to be moving fluidly even if some are made in response to things he couldn't possibly know were there.

I don't know why TPTB chose to not allow her to fly. People have to be guessing and spelling, eventually hoping that they will show Wonder Woman's powers in full. So far in that scene, I saw strength, speed, and stamina, but I wish she was clearly flying as well.

I have a hunch that the flight is something they are going to reserve for Superman alone, because he is the only one of the Justice League who is going to appear as a god-like figure that floats down from above to save our asses.

Diana's ability to glide however is not because she can control gravity, but because she can leap for so long that she simply appears to be flying, much like Ang Lee's Hulk did and like how Doomsday was a pair of bug-wings short of looking exactly like a Parademon... or the worlds largest, ugliest and nastiest bumblebee. (try going 'bzzzz' when you see him jumping after Batman)

[Vanguard-01]

I agree with most of what you said. i think we can agree though that Batman's role was kinda pointless in the end battle. He should have been the one to go get the spear, that he created. When Diana and Clark leapt into battle with Doomsday, Bruce should have taken off after the spear. Instead he was just standing there. After getting it, he could have noted Diana's strength, and told her that maybe she should be the one to try and kill Doomsday. Diana could have given her Lasso to Clark and told him to make sure the Monster didn't move while she kills him.

Once again, Batman also has no reason to believe Diana isn't a Kryptonian. If he got the spear, then it stands to reason he would've gone and tried to kill Doomsday himself. He was the only person present at the battle who he KNEW could handle the spear without a problem.

We also have no reason to believe that the Lasso would work for Clark. We saw the Lasso was glowing when Diana was using it. The glow faded and the rope became a seemingly ordinary metal rope after Doomsday broke Diana's grip on it. That seems to suggest that the Lasso either only glows when Diana's is holding it, or that activating it requires some conscious action on Diana's part. Sure, even without the glow, the Lasso is presumably still an indestructible rope with which Clark could've bound Doomsday. But there's no reason to believe that the unbreakable nature of the Lasso was the only thing allowing Diana to hold Doomsday immobile.

I have a hunch that the flight is something they are going to reserve for Superman alone, because he is the only one of the Justice League who is going to appear as a god-like figure that floats down from above to save our asses.

I don't know about Superman alone. Diana may not fly, but I have a really hard time believing that the Green Lanterns won't fly. They need spaceflight in order to do their jobs. Sure, sometimes GLs use ships, but there are so many things they can do that would be so much easier if they can just fly on their own as well.

Sure, the GLs probably won't show up until the end of the JL movie, but we know at least one of them will be on the League soon enough.

[richalex]

Once again, Batman also has no reason to believe Diana isn't a Kryptonian. If he got the spear, then it stands to reason he would've gone and tried to kill Doomsday himself. He was the only person present at the battle who he KNEW could handle the spear without a problem.

The point though, is that HE should have gone to get the Spear instead of standing there. When he mentioned, after Diana asked him why did he bring Doomsday back into the city, that there was a weapon, she could have inquired as to what it was. Dialogue/Conversation/world building. Diana seemed to know very much who they were, even if they didn't know who she was. She could have said she wasn't Kryptonian. She lead the charge against Doomsday, with Clark following her lead, while Bruce just stood there.

We also have no reason to believe that the Lasso would work for Clark. We saw the Lasso was glowing when Diana was using it. The glow faded and the rope became a seemingly ordinary metal rope after Doomsday broke Diana's grip on it. That seems to suggest that the Lasso either only glows when Diana's is holding it, or that activating it requires some conscious action on Diana's part. Sure, even without the glow, the Lasso is presumably still an indestructible rope with which Clark could've bound Doomsday. But there's no reason to believe that the unbreakable nature of the Lasso was the only thing allowing Diana to hold Doomsday immobile.

We would have reason to believe when she handed him the Lasso and told him to hold the creature. Thus introducing the world to the Lasso's abilities.

I like what we got of Diana, but it by no means was perfect.

[Vanguard-01]

The point though, is that HE should have gone to get the Spear instead of standing there. When he mentioned, after Diana asked him why did he bring Doomsday back into the city, that there was a weapon, she could have inquired as to what it was. Dialogue/Conversation/world building. Diana seemed to know very much who they were, even if they didn't know who she was. She could have said she wasn't Kryptonian. She lead the charge against Doomsday, with Clark following her lead, while Bruce just stood there.

Why would Diana just blurt out "Oh, I'm not Kryptonian, just so we're clear" to Batman?

Superman specifically asked him if he got the spear. She knew it was a spear. She still had no idea where it was. Batman did. Or he knew until Doomsday erupted mere seconds later and pretty much changed the topography of the entire area. For all Batman knew, the spear had just been destroyed or buried under debris from that blast.

And even if he still knew exactly where the spear was, that still doesn't change the fact that he would've had no reason to think handing it over to Diana would've been a good idea.

We would have reason to believe when she handed him the Lasso and told him to hold the creature. Thus introducing the world to the Lasso's abilities.

In the middle of a pitched battle against an unstoppable creature that is growing progressively more powerful by the minute, Diana is going to stop and hand one of her most prized possessions over to a total stranger and give him a primer on how it works?

And once again, the world is supposed to find out about the Lasso's capabilities in Diana's movie next year. Snyder deliberately left things vague so Patty Jenkins could decide for herself how to define Diana's capabilities.

I like what we got of Diana, but it by no means was perfect.

No. Not perfect. But not nearly as full of holes as people seem to believe.

[richalex]

Why would Diana just blurt out "Oh, I'm not Kryptonian, just so we're clear" to Batman?

Superman specifically asked him if he got the spear. She knew it was a spear. She still had no idea where it was. Batman did. Or he knew until Doomsday erupted mere seconds later and pretty much changed the topography of the entire area. For all Batman knew, the spear had just been destroyed or buried under debris from that blast.

And even if he still knew exactly where the spear was, that still doesn't change the fact that he would've had no reason to think handing it over to Diana would've been a good idea.

Clark: Where is the Spear?
Bruce: I've been a bit busy
Diana: Spear?
Bruce: Something that I can cause it great harm. But it would kill Superman if he gets it. Hold him off while I wait for the right moment to destroy the creature.
Diana: (Looks at Clark) What do you mean kill you if you go and get it?
Clark: Its made from my world, and is poisonous to me.
Diana: Give me the spear, I will make sure it's aim is true. I've killed things from other worlds before.

(Yes its clunky, as i'm not a writer, but that would have been better than "Is she with you"? Though I did find that funny.)

The concept art for Diana had her with a Spear. I wonder what that was about.....

In the middle of a pitched battle against an unstoppable creature that is growing progressively more powerful by the minute, Diana is going to stop and hand one of her most prized possessions over to a total stranger and give him a primer on how it works?

The whole point of the Trinity is that they have this crazy Synergy with each other. She doesn't have to give him a primer on how it works other than....

Clark: What is a rope going to do?
Diana: (With a smirk) Just trust me and hold the creature.

And once again, the world is supposed to find out about the Lasso's capabilities in Diana's movie next year. Snyder deliberately left things vague so Patty Jenkins could decide for herself how to define Diana's capabilities.

Nobody said they had to go into the whys of her abilities in this movie, but they could have introduced things a bit better.

[Vanguard-01]

Clark: Where is the Spear?
Bruce: I've been a bit busy
Diana: Spear?
Bruce: Something that I can cause it great harm. But it would kill Superman if he gets it. Hold him off while I wait for the right moment to destroy the creature.
Diana: (Looks at Clark) What do you mean kill you if you go and get it?
Clark: Its made from my world, and is poisonous to me.
Diana: Give me the spear, I will make sure it's aim is true. I've killed things from other worlds before.

(Yes its clunky, as i'm not a writer, but that would have been better than "Is she with you"? Though I did find that funny.)

They didn't have the spear to give her at the time. And once again, Doomsday erupted mere seconds after that exchange and leveled a whole lot of the surrounding area. At that point, Batman could not be sure the spear wasn't either destroyed or buried under so much debris that he'd never be able to find it. That eruption did, in fact, cause the cave in that buried Lois and the spear. Which means Batman probably noticed that the building in which he left the spear just collapsed.

The concept art for Diana had her with a Spear. I wonder what that was about.....

The concept art also featured Diana wearing a hooded cloak that never appeared. Concepts get changed and rejected all the time. The spear she had definitely didn't have a glowing green rock at the end of it.

The whole point of the Trinity is that they have this crazy Synergy with each other. She doesn't have to give him a primer on how it works other than....

Clark: What is a rope going to do?
Diana: (With a smirk) Just trust me and hold the creature.

They can't read each other's minds and they don't know each other well enough to trust each other's judgement. This is also Superman's first exposure to magic. All he sees Diana giving him is a thin piece of rope that should never be able to hold a monster that strong.

And that still doesn't solve the problem that the Lasso may not work for Superman at all.

Nobody said they had to go into the whys of her abilities in this movie, but they could have introduced things a bit better.

And if Patty Jenkins wanted the Lasso to work more like Mjolnir? Snyder would've just cut her off from using that.

Look, I could've done without Superman dying at the end of this movie too. But clearly that decision came from higher up than Snyder. The scene unfolded the way it did because WB wanted to finally realize their ten-year dream of doing a Death of Superman movie. All the clever ways out of Superman's death were cut off because the decision had been made that Superman was going to die at the end.

[richalex]

They didn't have the spear to give her at the time. And once again, Doomsday erupted mere seconds after that exchange and leveled a whole lot of the surrounding area. At that point, Batman could not be sure the spear wasn't either destroyed or buried under so much debris that he'd never be able to find it. That eruption did, in fact, cause the cave in that buried Lois and the spear. Which means Batman probably noticed that the building in which he left the spear just collapsed.

They had a whole conversation before Doomsday went boom again. And what is the difference between Bruce just standing there and running off to find the spear? Ether way he would have been and was, useless, atleast he would have been doing something instead of playing dogeball with the energy that Doomsday was unleashing.

The concept art also featured Diana wearing a hooded cloak that never appeared. Concepts get changed and rejected all the time. The spear she had definitely didn't have a glowing green rock at the end of it.

Yeah no kidding, hence it being concept art, and wasn't my point. The concept art with her having a spear appeared long before the movie came out, so it wouldn't have been shocking to anyone if it was Diana who did end up using the Kryptonite Spear and not Clark. My point was maybe she WAS supposed to be the one to deliver the killing blow. Or maybe not. Ether way it would have made more sense for her to be the one to do it.

They can't read each other's minds and they don't know each other well enough to trust each other's judgement. This is also Superman's first exposure to magic. All he sees Diana giving him is a thin piece of rope that should never be able to hold a monster that strong.

And that still doesn't solve the problem that the Lasso may not work for Superman at all.

My point is they have crazy synergy. Things just fall into place when they are on the same wavelength, this movie was supposed to show the beginning of this, and its debateable whether they succeeded in it.

So you're saying he would have sat there arguing with her instead of listening to her? The one constant in Diana's history is that the Lasso is indestructible. Even the regular moviegoer/fan knows it's an indestructible gold rope. Now if the truth/control abilities are within the lasso itself or a conduit that Diana uses, well that's changed, its elasticity and being indestructible it hasn't.

[Outside_85]

I don't know about Superman alone. Diana may not fly, but I have a really hard time believing that the Green Lanterns won't fly. They need spaceflight in order to do their jobs. Sure, sometimes GLs use ships, but there are so many things they can do that would be so much easier if they can just fly on their own as well.

Sure, the GLs probably won't show up until the end of the JL movie, but we know at least one of them will be on the League soon enough.

Well for the time being I am going by how the League appears to be shaping up and how it's currently being promoted: as in without a GL on it.