Don't Blink! Wonder Woman vs Doomsday

[Vanguard-01]

They had a whole conversation before Doomsday went boom again. And what is the difference between Bruce just standing there and running off to find the spear? Ether way he would have been and was, useless, atleast he would have been doing something instead of playing dogeball with the energy that Doomsday was unleashing.

That conversation didn't occur in enough time for Batman to run off, find the spear, retrieve it, and hand it over to Diana. Certainly not if they're going to have a similar-length conversation in which Diana details her origins. That doesn't even cover that fact that even if Batman ran off to get the spear right away, he would've found it wasn't where he left it. And then he would've been standing in the middle of a building that was about to be destroyed by Doomsday's eruption.

And Batman didn't just stand around. He distracted Doomsday for a while and it was his Kryptonite grenade that weakened Doomsday enough for Clark to stab him with the spear. Batman did what Batman should have done: he bided his time and waited for the opportunity to strike with the one useful weapon he had. Once he saw the building with the spear was destroyed, he had every reason to believe that the spear was a lost cause.

Yeah no kidding, hence it being concept art, and wasn't my point. The concept art with her having a spear appeared long before the movie came out, so it wouldn't have been shocking to anyone if it was Diana who did end up using the Kryptonite Spear and not Clark. My point was maybe she WAS supposed to be the one to deliver the killing blow. Or maybe not. Ether way it would have made more sense for her to be the one to do it.

Maybe she was supposed to land the killing blow at first. Then somewhere along the line, the decision was made that this was supposed to be a Death of Superman movie and that plan was changed. Whether that was a good decision or not isn't really relevant anymore. What's done is done.

And it would only have made more sense for Diana to deliver the killing blow if the plan was not to kill Superman at the end of the movie. If they didn't want Clark to die, they probably would've done something more like what you describe. Just like if they didn't want Superman to kill Zod in MOS, they would've let there be one last Phantom Drive lying around to allow Clark to send him back to the Phantom Zone.

My point is they have crazy synergy. Things just fall into place when they are on the same wavelength, this movie was supposed to show the beginning of this, and its debateable whether they succeeded in it.

They've had crazy synergy in previous continuities. It's just as easy to say that they won't have that in this universe. They may actually have to develop their synergy over time.

So you're saying he would have sat there arguing with her instead of listening to her? The one constant in Diana's history is that the Lasso is indestructible. Even the regular moviegoer/fan knows it's an indestructible gold rope. Now if the truth/control abilities are within the lasso itself or a conduit that Diana uses, well that's changed, its elasticity and being indestructible it hasn't.

I'm saying he'd have severe doubts that this tiny rope will do anything to contain Doomsday. He may not argue with her, but he may just drop the Lasso and decide to go after Doomsday with his fists. Or he may simply hesitate to act too long and miss the window to be relevant. It's asking a lot of him to just trust that this unremarkable-looking rope will be any kind of useful against a creature that's taken his best punches and kept coming.

We know the Lasso is indestructible. The audience knows it's indestructible. Superman, however, does not know that. And it's no easy feat convincing him to just take a completely blind leap of faith that this rope can just defy everything he knows about physics.

The Lasso was glowing when Diana used it on Doomsday. When she lost her grip, the glow went away. It's not unreasonable to assume that the glow may have had something to do with Doomsday's inability to escape the Lasso right away. And if it only ever glowed in Diana's hands, it's possible that it only works that way when in her hands. We won't know for certain until next year.

[Pamp_Lusa]

Noone has been able to find that quote Lusa; believe me, I have been searching for it all over the internet. Johns, one of the executive producers, did place Wonder Woman and Superman in the same category power-wise. This is in the extras of the DVD as part of the commentary. So there goes that. In the film, she she did exhibit the same great speed and strength in the doomsday battle that Superman exhibited with the same foe. Wonder Woman had enough strength to chop off his hand. She was fast with her blows against Doomsday and was faster in reaching him than Superman as many posters have highlighted, but if this is what you think, then I can't change it brother.

I copy-pasted it here on this website somewhere, I didn't make it up if that's what you're insinuating. But if you don't believe me Justice League will disabuse you guys of your wishful-thinking. Superman's return will be--eventful, if you catch my meaning. I'm sure Wonder Woman is exceptionally strong but, to paraphrase Zack Snyder, Superman is a cut above his peers, pray that he doesn't turn against the League…

[richalex]

That conversation didn't occur in enough time for Batman to run off, find the spear, retrieve it, and hand it over to Diana. Certainly not if they're going to have a similar-length conversation in which Diana details her origins. That doesn't even cover that fact that even if Batman ran off to get the spear right away, he would've found it wasn't where he left it. And then he would've been standing in the middle of a building that was about to be destroyed by Doomsday's eruption.

And Batman didn't just stand around. He distracted Doomsday for a while and it was his Kryptonite grenade that weakened Doomsday enough for Clark to stab him with the spear. Batman did what Batman should have done: he bided his time and waited for the opportunity to strike with the one useful weapon he had. Once he saw the building with the spear was destroyed, he had every reason to believe that the spear was a lost cause.

He stood around for most of that fight until the end of the fight where Clark impaled him with the Spear. Lets follow what you say since the spear wasn't an option until Clark went to get it. When he saw that Diana's sword was powerful enough to cut into the monster, what he should have done was fire the kryptonite gas gun at Doomsday, weakening him so Diana can chop his head off. He was hiding most of the fight, understandably because the monster was out of his weight class. And when Clark got distracted by Lois, only Diana was holding off the Monster by herself.

I'm saying he'd have severe doubts that this tiny rope will do anything to contain Doomsday. He may not argue with her, but he may just drop the Lasso and decide to go after Doomsday with his fists. Or he may simply hesitate to act too long and miss the window to be relevant. It's asking a lot of him to just trust that this unremarkable-looking rope will be any kind of useful against a creature that's taken his best punches and kept coming.

We know the Lasso is indestructible. The audience knows it's indestructible. Superman, however, does not know that. And it's no easy feat convincing him to just take a completely blind leap of faith that this rope can just defy everything he knows about physics.

The Lasso was glowing when Diana used it on Doomsday. When she lost her grip, the glow went away. It's not unreasonable to assume that the glow may have had something to do with Doomsday's inability to escape the Lasso right away. And if it only ever glowed in Diana's hands, it's possible that it only works that way when in her hands. We won't know for certain until next year.

Clark isn't dumb, in any universe. He is seeing that her weapons are having an effect on the monster, if she did turn to him and say that she would impale the creature, while he holds the creature with her lasso, i'm sure he will listen and argue the point of the rope later.

[Vanguard-01]

He stood around for most of that fight until the end of the fight where Clark impaled him with the Spear. Lets follow what you say since the spear wasn't an option until Clark went to get it. When he saw that Diana's sword was powerful enough to cut into the monster, what he should have done was fire the kryptonite gas gun at Doomsday, weakening him so Diana can chop his head off. He was hiding most of the fight, understandably because the monster was out of his weight class. And when Clark got distracted by Lois, only Diana was holding off the Monster by herself.

How many clear shots at Doomsday did he have? Did we see any? We just saw him hiding under debris and running away when threatened. More importantly, how many clear shots did he have when Diana wasn't being knocked away or somehow on the defensive? Did he have any chance to shoot Doomsday while Diana could land a decapitating blow?

And once again, your scenario isn't invalid. But that wasn't the story being told. All these scenarios basically amount to "If the Trinity watched the movie before the battle, they would've been able to beat Doomsday without losing Clark." It's easy to armchair general this movie, but in the heat of battle, people don't always think about everything.

Clark isn't dumb, in any universe. He is seeing that her weapons are having an effect on the monster, if she did turn to him and say that she would impale the creature, while he holds the creature with her lasso, i'm sure he will listen and argue the point of the rope later.

Maybe. But in that scene, I could see him just deciding that there's no time to play around with something like the Lasso and falling back on tactics that might actually hold Doomsday at bay.

[RealWonderman]

I read that as her leaping at Doomsday.

Understood....but that is really not what it looks like on film. It looks identical to flying, but again, maybe she "glides on air currents" or whatever. I'm just happy that it has the same appearance as flying...I'd prefer if they actually showed her flying up in the sky, next to an airplane, or Superman, or something though.

[RealWonderman]

Lois' purpose was to get the weapon while the heroes fought to keep Doomsday away from civilians. If Clark or Diana had broken off to go get the spear, Doomsday may have gotten past the one who remained and raised havoc in either Metropolis or Gotham. Her purpose was also the same purpose as Colonel Hardy's and Dr. Hamilton's role in MOS: showing that even ordinary non-super people can stand up and make a difference as well.

Diana could not have used the spear to stab Doomsday. She was too busy holding him still with the Lasso. Even if you take that part away, unless Diana was the one to physically lay hands upon the spear, there is no reason why Clark would have just handed it over to her and let her kill Doomsday. Superman just met Diana. He has no knowledge of her. He doesn't know she's good with a spear. He just knows she has powers similar to his own. Heck, considering that Kryptonians are the ONLY people he's seen with the powers he and Diana possess, he may have had no reason to believe that she wasn't Kryptonian herself, and thus would've been just as affected by the spear as he was.

Furthermore? It is completely out of character for Superman to ask ANYONE to put themselves in danger for his own convenience. He would never just fly up to this woman whose name he doesn't even know and say "Here! This thing hurts me and I have no idea if it'll hurt you too. But I don't want to get hurt or killed, so you take it and try your luck for me! I'll be over here, hoping it all works out!"



Snyder made it perfectly clear why Diana's powers were left vague. He wanted to give Patty Jenkins the freedom to make her own decisions about how Diana was to be portrayed in her own movie. Jenkins, subsequently, has made it quite clear that we did not see Diana's entire power set in BvS.

For all we know, Diana will either already have flight in her own movie or will acquire that power by the end of the movie. She will probably even demonstrate some other powers in the movie. It's fun to speculate, but some people are jumping to conclusions entirely too quickly, based on very little evidence.

Hear, hear! I like this quite a bit...especially the several, very valid reasons why Superman would not hand the spear to Wonder Woman.

[rayray1127]

I spent last evening watching and re-watching the fight over and over... Man, did it thrill me seeing Diana in action! I admit I was one of the ones that was apprehensive about Gal when she was cast, but over time she's said and done all the right things, so now I can't picture anyone else in the role!

What I saw displayed in that fight was a POWERHOUSE. I didn't see flying in the super-leaps no matter how much I tried, but that's a non-issue for me. Maybe it's not flight so much as a Jessica Jones-esque "directional falling". Anyhow, I saw Hulk-like super-leaps, immense super strength, invulnerability, Kryponian-like super speed, and amazing fighting prowess. She went toe to toe with a creature that is insanely murderous and as strong, if not stronger than, Superman. She got hit and slid a block away from him, destroying debris along the way, then SMILED and waded back in. A Doomsday punch she blocked created a shock-wave around her before she cut off it's hand.

And then, to top ALL THAT off, the look of pure compassion she gives Lois before, then after Supes is in her lap was so quintessentially WONDER WOMAN to me... It made me feel the emotion behind that look, and that is a HUGE plus. All in all, just an incredible showing of Diana's power!

[Baggie_Saiyan]

I do like how she waited until the very last second to save Batman lol. Also I still really like how the fight was edited especially the part when Doomy pushes her back and she then super speeds while she does that awesome scream then we cut to Lois. Non WW related but the Doomy vs Superman laser battle was another highlight of the battle.

What sucked though is the (awful) 2nd trailer totally ruined the fight when I watched the film for the first time, not and issue now but back then it was, WW dropping in and saving Batman should have been an awesome moment and then the Trinity shot the only one aswell godamn WB did Snyder pretty dirty.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Hear, hear! I like this quite a bit...especially the several, very valid reasons why Superman would not hand the spear to Wonder Woman.

I can't believe that this is an issue, like people complain that Superman is "out of character" then want him to do something that is the very definition of out of character, lol what?

[Outside_85]

Understood....but that is really not what it looks like on film. It looks identical to flying, but again, maybe she "glides on air currents" or whatever. I'm just happy that it has the same appearance as flying...I'd prefer if they actually showed her flying up in the sky, next to an airplane, or Superman, or something though.

Depends on the film you watched, the one I looked at... which is now on youtube, it looked alot more like someone with extremely powerful leg-muscles jumping forwards... helped along by the fact that she never changes direction during any of these leaps.

[rayray1127]

Depends on the film you watched, the one I looked at... which is now on youtube, it looked alot more like someone with extremely powerful leg-muscles jumping forwards... helped along by the fact that she never changes direction during any of these leaps.

Yup, that's what I saw, too. And I'm fine with that! I don't really think Diana NEEDS flight to still be an extremely powerful being! It's pretty, and I'm glad she has it in the comics, but those super jumps are SO bad-a$$, I find myself not at all disappointed by true flight's absence.

[enish]

I would be happy if we could get both!

To me, taking off her ability to fly IS depowering her. Especially since the majority of her depictions in popular culture shows her flying. In the animated world, she just doesn't fly in her animated movie, and even so, she IS shown kinda hovering while fighting against Ares at the very end.

On another level, flight is a very strong symbole for freedom, being able to devy the laws of gravity is non-negligible and especially with a character like Wonder Woman, from a feminist's point of view, it can be seen as an attempt to keep the female character down on the ground while the "Alpha male" in Superman is allowed to stay up high in the sky.

That's why I want her to be able to fly, even if she uses fligt only every now and then and would rather jump around.

[blueray]

I would imagine flying, from a special effects stand point, is quite expensive. Personally I would love to see Wonder Woman fly in the movies - to see her soar through a clear blue sky would be brilliant. But if they want to save the cash to spend it on some other effect that is justifiable and makes me forget the whole flying/jumping thing then more power to them.

[dianafan1985]

Lois' purpose was to get the weapon while the heroes fought to keep Doomsday away from civilians. If Clark or Diana had broken off to go get the spear, Doomsday may have gotten past the one who remained and raised havoc in either Metropolis or Gotham. Her purpose was also the same purpose as Colonel Hardy's and Dr. Hamilton's role in MOS: showing that even ordinary non-super people can stand up and make a difference as well.

Diana could not have used the spear to stab Doomsday. She was too busy holding him still with the Lasso. Even if you take that part away, unless Diana was the one to physically lay hands upon the spear, there is no reason why Clark would have just handed it over to her and let her kill Doomsday. Superman just met Diana. He has no knowledge of her. He doesn't know she's good with a spear. He just knows she has powers similar to his own. Heck, considering that Kryptonians are the ONLY people he's seen with the powers he and Diana possess, he may have had no reason to believe that she wasn't Kryptonian herself, and thus would've been just as affected by the spear as he was.

Furthermore? It is completely out of character for Superman to ask ANYONE to put themselves in danger for his own convenience. He would never just fly up to this woman whose name he doesn't even know and say "Here! This thing hurts me and I have no idea if it'll hurt you too. But I don't want to get hurt or killed, so you take it and try your luck for me! I'll be over here, hoping it all works out!"

You are forgetting that Batman was also at the scene, and he originally was going to retrieve the spear to kill doomsday. Batman is human enough to represent humans fighting an Alien of Doomsday's might and power, plus surviving, even more than impulsive, childish, and wimpy, Lois. Actually he demonstrated well what we would have done in that scene because he fled. Lois Lane was just an annoying damsel in distress, and that whole chick flick scene between her and Clark was overrated. In MY opinion, they needed to have focused solely on the trinity doing battle (using their special techniques) with an invincible unstoppable foe. Lois was not needed in that scene because it took Superman out of the fight, and did not use the other characters adequately just for some corny love scene, which made me want to vomit.

Again, in my perspective, if the scene was written differently: Batman retrieves the spear, he takes it close to Superman (he weakens) and Wonder Woman (she doesn't), and Wonder Woman would have volunteered to use it. Of course this is a simplified summary of what I mean; unfortunately I don't have any time to add any details, but you can use your imagination. They all had a scene together remember? Just before the doomsday fight. They perhaps could have had another scene briefly where this was discussed, and perhaps Wonder Woman could have used the spear to damage DD in other ways (given that shes a warrior) than how Superman had tried and failed to preserve his own life. It makes me not appreciate Superman as a hero because the scene was not written to its full potential, in my opinion.

I never ONCE said Superman should have asked Diana to take the spear. Please show me where I wrote that. What I did say was that Diana should have been the one to stab him. There are several ways the scene could have been written to lead up to that. You only presented one way, and a very unlikely way for Diana to have retrieved the weapon. I presented another. Perhaps an unlikely way to you too. And I'm sure that team of talented writers could have presented various and more impressive ways in fleshing this scene out logically.

Snyder made it perfectly clear why Diana's powers were left vague. He wanted to give Patty Jenkins the freedom to make her own decisions about how Diana was to be portrayed in her own movie. Jenkins, subsequently, has made it quite clear that we did not see Diana's entire power set in BvS.

For all we know, Diana will either already have flight in her own movie or will acquire that power by the end of the movie. She will probably even demonstrate some other powers in the movie. It's fun to speculate, but some people are jumping to conclusions entirely too quickly, based on very little evidence.

Again, that makes no sense, especially since I had seen ALL OF THESE SCENES months before in the trailers that were used to promote the film. Obviously, I am going to expect more from the movie to elaborate on those scenes. Thus I was disappointed that these showings were the only ones of Diana. But it is what it is.

[Vanguard-01]

You are forgetting that Batman was also at the scene, and he originally was going to retrieve the spear to kill doomsday.

Yes. And then Batman saw the building in which he left the spear collapse under Doomsday's energy eruption. At that point, it's likely he considered the spear a lost cause. It would've been either destroyed by the blast or buried under a ton of debris.

Batman is human enough to represent humans fighting an Alien of Doomsday's might and power, plus surviving, even more than impulsive, childish, and wimpy, Lois.

Batman is not human. Not in the way we're talking about. It's basic comic book logic: if you put on a costume and call yourself a cute codename, that automatically makes you capable of going up against superbeings without being immediately squashed like a bug. Human supporting cast like Colonel Hardy, Dr. Hamilton, and even "impulsive childish, and wimpy" Lois Lane are not supers. They can't take on superbeings like Doomsday, but they can help the supers in doing so.

The fact that you don't like Lois doesn't invalidate her as a member of Superman's supporting cast. Or the fact that she has been instrumental in helping him many times throughout her 75 years of existence.

I never ONCE said Superman should have asked Diana to take the spear. Please show me where I wrote that. What I did say was that Diana should have been the one to stab him. There are several ways the scene could have been written to lead up to that. You only presented one way, and a very unlikely way for Diana to have retrieved the weapon. I presented another. Perhaps an unlikely way to you too. And I'm sure that team of talented writers could have presented various and more impressive ways in fleshing this scene out logically.

I never said you did say that. I just said that it's not in Superman's character to put other people in harm's way just so he could avoid potential harm. Especially when he had no reason to believe that the "alternate" had any better chance at taking out Doomsday than he did.

This is all moot because Clark, Diana, and Bruce had no reason to believe the spear was even on the menu after that building was destroyed. Lois was the ONLY character there who knew exactly where the spear was.

And as I said to richalex, your alternate scenario would've negated Superman's death. That wasn't an option because the death had been mandated by the PTB. The story unfolded the way it did because that was the direction it was supposed to go.

Again, that makes no sense, especially since I had seen ALL OF THESE SCENES months before in the trailers that were used to promote the film. Obviously, I am going to expect more from the movie to elaborate on those scenes. Thus I was disappointed that these showings were the only ones of Diana. But it is what it is.

They definitely should not have revealed so much in the trailers. No question about that.

But that doesn't change anything. BvS was never intended to be a full introduction to Wonder Woman. They did with her exactly what I'd been advocating for since the day we first learned Diana was going to appear in this movie: they used this movie as a little teaser to get people interested in her. They didn't reveal her backstory. They didn't reveal her origin. They didn't reveal the full range of her powers (just enough to show people that she's freaking awesome.) Heck, they never even called her Wonder Woman. Now? when her movie comes out next year, people are going to be like "Wow! That awesome chick who was in BvS is getting her own movie! I'm so there!"

I'm not sure how anyone could've gone into this movie expecting to get Diana's full dossier when she has her own movie coming out a year later.