Reading Through Slott's Amazing/Superior Run

[Aruran.]

Anyone's mileage may vary on this, but how many books do Bendis, Waid, Ewing, Soule or even Scott Snyder write each month without such a steep, noticeable drop in quality?

Spider-Man may also come out twice a month, but it's also frequently co-written by Gage when there's a crunch.

Slott has stated he does the old "Marvel Way" style where he writes an outline and then the artist draws it out and Slott adds more to it. He did state it was slower then the method the guys above do cause of the back and forth, which is different from purely writing from a script and the artist goes from there.

And you'd be surprised how many Gage has cowritten, cause the latest story arc was the first time Gage has been on for the new volume.

[oldschool]

Oh good, so its not just me, right? Not that I loved every Slott story with Wacker, but there a distinct dropoff right around the middle of Goblin Nation when Wacker leaves and Lowe comes on board that the book has frankly never recovered from. Slott's dialog, his story structure, his subplot building, his use of simile or metaphor in a fun comic booky way, the way he used to link pages together with thematically similar narration, the attention he pays to characterization(not just Black Cat kingpin kinda of dumb, but just how fast and loose he's willingly to bend characters to his plot demands)...its all noticeably deteriorated. There is not one single story he's done in the past 2+ years on the same level as "Spider-Man/Human Torch: I'm With Stupid", "Paperdoll", "Mysteriso", "Spider-Island", "Return of the Spider-Slayers", "Brand New Day", ASM #600, the majority of his first calendar year on ASM or the first calendar year of Superior Spider-Man. Not a single story to add to his highlights.

Agreed 100%. I was a huge fan of Slott's work during his first few years on the title but have felt it has been a slow and steady decline since then; it's too much of a coincidence that this slide began right at the time that Wacker left his editorial duties and never really recovered. I just don't see Wacker going for the crazed big event to big event pace that Slott has adopted with little to no character building or even sensible character interaction; I get that Slott is---by his own admission--- huge fan of all things Marvel and wants to play with all the toys in the toychest but he has really lost his way on what made his initial Spidey tales special IMO.

[Tuck]

Wasn't Lowe the editor on USM?

[Aruran.]

Wasn't Lowe the editor on USM?

I don't think he was ever the main editor, cause there's a lot of issues done solely with Ralph Maccino and some with the two of them.

[Rob London]

So what happened in MC2 is canon to the 616? Does that mean Peter and MJ were married and had Mayday too?

No, but clearly there's precedent for him to have that power - especially since DeFalco wrote Urich's solo series, too.

EDIT: Also, I now remember that he used the Lunatic Laugh in Loners, too - he breaks a mirror with it.

[stillanerd]

I did the same thing last summer rereading Slott's run on Spider-Man.

And I wonder if Pav is gonna come away with the same conclusion I had,
there's a noticeable difference in quality when Wacker leaves the book.

Oh good, so its not just me, right? Not that I loved every Slott story with Wacker, but there a distinct dropoff right around the middle of Goblin Nation when Wacker leaves and Lowe comes on board that the book has frankly never recovered from. Slott's dialog, his story structure, his subplot building, his use of simile or metaphor in a fun comic booky way, the way he used to link pages together with thematically similar narration, the attention he pays to characterization(not just Black Cat kingpin kinda of dumb, but just how fast and loose he's willingly to bend characters to his plot demands)...its all noticeably deteriorated. There is not one single story he's done in the past 2+ years on the same level as "Spider-Man/Human Torch: I'm With Stupid", "Paperdoll", "Mysteriso", "Spider-Island", "Return of the Spider-Slayers", "Brand New Day", ASM #600, the majority of his first calendar year on ASM or the first calendar year of Superior Spider-Man. Not a single story to add to his highlights.

I would add that at the same time Wacker left Slott was put on Silver Surfer as well, so since 2014 he's been writing 3 books, which could be his bigger reason for the quality drop.

Wacker had said in interviews he would veto Slott out of writing a new book if ASM was x2 a month, so maybe he really did know.

Agreed 100%. I was a huge fan of Slott's work during his first few years on the title but have felt it has been a slow and steady decline since then; it's too much of a coincidence that this slide began right at the time that Wacker left his editorial duties and never really recovered. I just don't see Wacker going for the crazed big event to big event pace that Slott has adopted with little to no character building or even sensible character interaction; I get that Slott is---by his own admission--- huge fan of all things Marvel and wants to play with all the toys in the toychest but he has really lost his way on what made his initial Spidey tales special IMO.

I'm in total agreement, as well. I know I've had my share of disagreements and contentious on-line spats with Wacker in the past, but as an editor, it was very apparent he knew exactly what he was doing and knew how run a tight ship. Even if you disagreed with the creative decisions being made and the stories themselves, you still had the sense there was quality in the titles he oversaw. After all, Wacker's the same guy who managed to make DC's weekly 52 series come out on-schedule week-after-week without, I believe, a single delay. Also, I think Ellie Pyle deserves a lot of credit, as well.

Wasn't Lowe the editor on USM?

If you mean the Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon on Disney XD, then yes, as Wacker is one of the execs at Marvel Animation now.

[Frontier]

If you mean the Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon on Disney XD, then yes, as Wacker is one of the execs at Marvel Animation now.

And he's actually made them watchable and enjoyable, even if they still have their issues (and Wacker is still Wacker).

[Pav]

Hey everyone.

Y'know...

I'm glad I had Spidey comics as a kid, so that I started thinking about the relationship between power and responsibility as quite a young person.

Human beings have so much power in this world - so much power over this world - and I hope I live to see a day where we as a species truly understand what our place is amidst everything else, including each other.

-Pav, who promises to get to the reviewing in the next post...

[Pav]

Today, I'm looking at Amazing Spider-Man #667, which is the first chapter of Spider-Island, all the way up to #681, which is the end of the Spidey/Torch in Space story.

Overall, I find this stretch of stories to be extremely solid, if not spectacular at times.

First things first, we have the Spider-Island issues - and I think they're awesome.

I love this event. It's totally fresh - it's unlike any other Spider-Man story that came before. And it not only provides a lot of great action, but also some really great character moments as well. The Peter-Carlie stuff is obvious, but I was really struck by Dan Slott's characterization of MJ in the latter parts of the event. As she gains her spider-powers, her further understanding of what it's like being Peter was, I thought, really well done - as was her whispered "I love you" to Peter. Honestly, I found MJ's voice in these issues to be so similar to the MJ I remember from the Amazing/PP/Spectacular/Sensational days - the era that (along with the Clone Saga) really acts as the foundation of my Spidey knowledge.

As a Clone Saga fan, you know I loved seeing the Jackal again. I already mentioned in a previous post that I liked Slott's take, so I'll skip that and just point out that I LOVED how, at the end of the story, we see that Jackal was never really second-in-command to the Queen and was essentially just using her to further his own agenda. Really great take on Miles Warren, in my view.

There's only a couple of iffy things in play during this story. One is Kaine. Don't get me wrong: I love that he was utilized and that it led to his own series as the Scarlet Spider, and I think it was a cool move by Slott to utilize the Anti-Venom stuff to provide Kaine with a cure to his monstrousness/degeneration. I just... I just really liked Kaine as he was. I liked him as the Frankenstein's Monster of the spider-set. But! Even though I might've done things differently as the writer, I still think it was a pretty nice story beat on Dan's part.

The other thing - the only real thing that I feel is problematic about the story - is the Venom stuff. Of all the "side issues", the Venom ones are the most relevant to the story, and without them it's kinda choppy. Every so often it's like, oh there's Steve Rogers all of a sudden. Where'd he and Venom come from? But it only happens a couple of times, really, and everything else about the story is done about as perfectly as an event like this can be! (I also really liked a lot of the other associated Spider-Island minis, but I didn't read them this go-around.)

The Vulture story that comes after the Spider-Island fallout was totally forgettable - as most Vulture stories tend to be. The thing I liked most about it was seeing Peter and Carlie having to work together after breaking up. Say what you will about Carlie Cooper as a character, but I do think it's a positive that we have, in these stories, a romantic interest who can participate actively in both the Peter-side and the Spidey-side of things.

In fact, what's great about all the stories that came out around this time is the character work that Slott showcases:

After the Vulture story, we get the Spidey / Black Cat / Daredevil story - and while it feels out of place (due to really being part of a larger DD story), I do like the interaction between all three characters.

Then we get stories featuring Peter interacting with his Horizon coworkers, specifically Grady and Uatu. First, Grady and Peter have to figure out why NYC exploded, and I really like the Shrodinger's Cat thing that Dan went for in this story - it's fun. Plus, when I compare the stories about Horizon with the ones I read back in the day about Tri-Corp? Good lord are these better! Way, way better. I'll say it again: readers may not always like the specific choices that Dan makes with characters, but at least he does SOMETHING with them! At least they're utilized as characters and not just wall-paper, like Tri-Corp was. *shudders* Ew. Byrne era. *shudders again*

Anyway, the story focusing on Uatu was great for the same reason - the advancement of the characters and subplots within Horizon - but with the added bonus of ONE OF THE GREATEST CHARACTERS EVER, MORBIUS THE LIVING VAMPIRE!!!!!!! And I think Dan did a solid job with Morbius. The one thing that I noticed about Slott's take on the Morbius-Spidey dynamic in this specific story is that Peter seems to not irrationally hate Morbius as much as he tends to in other stories. I mean, I think this story shows Peter caring about Morbius as a person, and that's great; that's in-line with who Peter Parker is as a character. And yet, weirdly, Peter tends to come off looking like a total a-hole for some reason when it comes to Michael Morbius. And after seeing so many stories like that... I kinda like it now. I kinda like that Peter just has some weird subconscious issue with Morbius that causes him to not be as sympathetic as he usually is to the truly afflicted. Regardless, I found this to be a solid story.

Now, the next story - and the last one I'm covering in this post - is the Spidey / Torch / John Jameson story. And I've read this one before and felt kinda "meh" about it. But this time, I really came to see this story as a hidden gem within Dan's run. Most notably, we get the first story within Amazing featuring the Human Torch after his death(s) in the Negative Zone. For anyone who enjoys Slott's "I'm With Stupid" miniseries, this seems like the perfect follow-up; the dynamic between the two is impeccable, especially when John Jameson starts playing straightman while they bicker.

And, speaking of John, I've always thought that his character never quite fit in the pages of Spidey comics. For whatever reason, it's like writers could never really figure out what to do with him; certainly his Moongod/werewolf stuff lowers his status as a "normal guy" in the way that his father or Robbie is. (And even Jonah's "normal guy" status has the old Scorpion and Spider-Slayer stories to deal with.) But I thought Dan really utilized John well here; linking his career as an astronaut to the goings-on at Horizon was a deft move, I think. And, if John sometimes feels too fantastic for the "every-guy" nature of the Spidey comics, well, Peter's relationship with the Fantastic Four is kinda similar. Why not double-down on the more fantastical elements of Peter's world for this specific story, right? Makes sense to me!

Oh, and Jonah gets some great moments here too. Seeing him care for John, just like with Marla, helps the reader to empathize with him instead of just seeing him as a jokey blowhard.

So yeah, I really loved the characterization that we get in these stories - not to mention that, throughout, we see glimpses of Doctor Octopus! And you can tell Dan really takes Ock's persona as the "Master Planner" seriously. The slow burn with Ock is fantastic, and I really, really love his take on Otto so far.

Can't wait to start Ends of the Earth, most of which I've never read before!

-Pav, who still has a soft-spot for Clone Saga-era, "I'll save you because I deserve to beat you!" Doctor Octopus...

[Pav]

PS: These two things are now in my head canon:

1) Grady Scraps is the cousin (or half-brother or something) of Billy Walters from Sensational by Dezago and Weiringo.

2) Someday, Uatu is going to marry Hope, the deaf girl who is also from Sensational by Dezago and Weiringo!

-Pav, who thinks every Spider-Fan should go back and read that fun run...

[Zeitgeist]

Spider-Island was decent, though I wasn't wowed. Funny thing about Slott's run around this time for me: whenever other major characters are involved in the story like the Avengers (particularly thinking about Steve Rodgers in Spider Island here and all of their involvement in Ends Of The Earth), it just comes off feeling like it's all taking place in a completely different universe for them. Like, there's no acknowledgement of much of any of it over in their books. I think that weakens their use, somewhat.

So not only do we get Daniel inexplicably in the suit, not only do we get an evil heel-turn of sorts for Phil (I never read Loners, so it was even more jarring)

1) With Roderick shown to franchise out villain identities, I thought it was easy to draw the conclusion that he had Daniel keeping up appearances while he was overseas.
2) You not reading Loners isn't really a fault of the writing here. Phil was already established as a 'heel' by the end of that series, Slott was just continuing that trajectory here. Your issues with the sonic laugh are regarding continuity, but Phil's alignment here is Slott actually keeping to continuity, so you know...

[Pav]

Hey everyone! I just wanted to give you a heads-up: I just finished "Dying Wish", and so the next installment of this review thread - from Ends of the Earth to the "end" of Amazing - will be coming soon!

-Pav, who is debating whether to read/include the Alpha limited series...

[SpiderNerd]

I think Slott's overall "Big Time" run from #648-700 is the best he's done with his tenure on the title. There are a lot of really fun stories in there, and I think he does fairly well with characterization and mapping out how certain characters would react in given situations.

[Rob London]

Hey everyone! I just wanted to give you a heads-up: I just finished "Dying Wish", and so the next installment of this review thread - from Ends of the Earth to the "end" of Amazing - will be coming soon!

-Pav, who is debating whether to read/include the Alpha limited series...

I recommend the Alpha limited series. It's quite charming, and the Nuno Plati art is very nice.

[Pav]

PART 1

These posts cover issues 682-700 of Dan Slott's Amazing Spider-Man run. The stories over this period are, in order: Ends of the Earth, the Morbius/Lizard story, the origin of Alpha, the Double Hobgoblin story, and Dying Wish. Overall, I think these issues end the "Big Time" era on an extremely high note, culminating in one of the gutsiest moves by a spider-writer in the history of the character!

First things first, though: Ends of the Earth! While I don't think this story is as compelling as Spider-Island was, it also doesn't suffer from crossover-fever - no Venom issues missing from the storyline, y'know? But more importantly, Dan Slott continues his strong characterization: every hero and every villain felt in-character, even when the character did something that I wouldn't have chosen for him to do had I been the writer of the story (if that makes sense). The motivations of Doc Ock felt totally right - he would be so ego-centric as to not be able to stand the world going on without him - and I thought the response from Spidey and co. felt dead on, especially how Peter felt that he had lost due to the death of a single person. Very nice story beat from Slott, I think; totally jives with Peter's completely unrealistic standards for himself, which have been forefront since the death of Marla Jameson. Love the emotional arc that Dan pens for Peter throughout this whole run. Masterful stuff.

I said that Ends of the Earth didn't excite me as much as Spider-Island, and I think maybe the premise just isn't as fun. And I definitely didn't think the story was enhanced by the cast of heroes from around the world who helped Spidey; I mean, okay, it WAS fun to see the Kangaroo II again - I'll give you that; and Union Jack is pretty cool, sure; every character has their fans, but... the inclusions of characters like the Immortal Weapons and Cloak & Dagger into Spider-Island were pretty fantastic. Seeing Sabra getting shot in the back of the head just isn't as enjoyable.

That being said, I LOVED seeing Silver Sable in action again! Now, I will say this: if I remember correctly, it was originally going to be Black Cat instead of Silver Sable in this story, right? If so, I think that move makes sense in terms of continuing to use the characters we've seen throughout the whole run; Black Cat was in the very first issue of the Big Time era, and so seeing her by Peter's side at his most dire moment makes perfect sense in terms of the long game that Dan executes so well throughout this era! BUT!!! I like Silver Sable, and I think she fit this story perfectly: I mean, who would you rather have in a global "end of the world" event - a cat burglar or a mercenary who essentially runs her own country? So, yeah - I was happy that Silver was introduced into this era, and I think Dan managed to portray her pretty accurately with past appearances. The only thing that gave me pause was when she appeared about to tell Spidey that she was romantically invested in him: even if we buy that Silver DOES have a thing for Spidey - and I do, I suppose - I still don't think she would be so ready to share her emotions with him. At least - not until the world was DEFINITELY coming to an end.

I think Dan does a good job with the motivations of the Sinister Six, as well. Maybe not for Electro - but then, which writers have really nailed down his motivations? And anyway, he gets taken off the board pretty quickly. (Perhaps Dan knows he just doesn't have much to say about Electro.) Chameleon is maybe the next weakest, but the motivations of Mysterio and Rhino felt totally legitimate. I will say that I don't love Dan's take on Mysterio; I think it's fun and I think it's in-character, but I prefer my Mysterio a little less "showbiz flippant" and a little more "spooky mcspookerson". In fact - and I can't believe I'm about to say this - but I really liked the Byrne-era Mysterio. Probably my favorite take ever on the character. Good example of "less is more" perhaps. But like I said, I get what Dan's going for with his funnier take, and it's okay by me. Similarly, his decision to turn traitor felt right also, even if my brain ALSO believes that Mysterio would never give his enemies the opportunity to "get to know him" better. But, again, both interpretations of Mysterio make sense, and Dan took one and ran with it to pretty positive effect - because Quentin IS pretty funny

Oh, and I LOVE the idea that Black Widow is aware of who Chameleon is and knows things about him that even his "family" the Kravinoffs don't know. This is a great example of these little tidbits that Dan is often able to sprinkle into his stories that really show attention to detail when it comes to knowing the characters he's working with. Frankly, after just this one scene, I'd be stoked to read a Black Widow comic in which Chameleon plays a large role.

Oh - and one more thing: in that hypothetical Black Widow comic, you'd bet I'd be happy to see her and Silver Sable team-up a bunch. Those two are fun together.

The Avenging story about Silver Sable was a nice inclusion to give her some extra time in the spotlight, but the story was ultimately pretty forgettable.