Villains that Need to Die...For Good

[ImprobableQuestion]

Everyone is correct regarding Cyclops' moral alignment (this is getting way off topic).

To the MU at large Scott is a villain. It's the same as Tony Stark in Civil War. But when Cyclops is the protagonist he's portrayed as a hero.

The whole goal of these Hero vs. Hero things is there is no right and wrong. The readers pick a side. Civil War was more or less an abject failure in this regard, but that's the purpose of schism as well. Do it Yourself Flamewars.

[Rochedalaix]

Everyone is correct regarding Cyclops' moral alignment (this is getting way off topic).

To the MU at large Scott is a villain. It's the same as Tony Stark in Civil War. But when Cyclops is the protagonist he's portrayed as a hero.

The whole goal of these Hero vs. Hero things is there is no right and wrong. The readers pick a side. Civil War was more or less an abject failure in this regard, but that's the purpose of schism as well. Do it Yourself Flamewars.

There is a right and wrong and simply following the principle of causality it is simple to find out who is right and who isn't.

[Rochedalaix]

Everyone is correct regarding Cyclops' moral alignment (this is getting way off topic).

To the MU at large Scott is a villain. It's the same as Tony Stark in Civil War. But when Cyclops is the protagonist he's portrayed as a hero.

The whole goal of these Hero vs. Hero things is there is no right and wrong. The readers pick a side. Civil War was more or less an abject failure in this regard, but that's the purpose of schism as well. Do it Yourself Flamewars.

*double post

[Emma's Midriff]

There is a right and wrong and simply following the principle of causality it is simple to find out who is right and who isn't.

I agree with this.

[ImprobableQuestion]

There is a right and wrong and simply following the principle of causality it is simple to find out who is right and who isn't.

This is true. But I'm a moderate by nature and generally in comic books these things play out to be "everyone is wrong, who is more wrong?" I maybe just haven't read a good enough story of this kind yet.

[klinton]

I think the people who call Kitty and Cyclops villains, but say Wanda has never done anything wrong are hilarious.

Kitty was just trying to protect the O5 from the Brotherhood ffs.

I was very tongue in cheek with the Kitty post. While she's annoying as all hell and def needs to go away, I don't think anyone here actually feels she's a villain. Piety and smugness are ugly but not evil.

[klinton]

There is a right and wrong and simply following the principle of causality it is simple to find out who is right and who isn't.

So, who was 'right' when Scott decided to BBQ the earth, or while he and Emma dined on steaks marinated in human blood? Following your 'principal of causality', who was right there?

[CJStriker]

[/B][/B]

I think actions decide whether someone is a villain not just intent and since fixing her harmful actions during House of M were responsible for the plot of X-Men for 6 years she was a villain. I believe motivation is the most important thing when I decide whether a character is worthy of existing or not, I also think the definition of hero or villain is not static and depends on what comics you follow for example in Decimation Scarlet Witch was a villain, in AvX and most of her career she was a hero. To be fair to Scarlet Witch even though I don't like her as a hero either, I should have said when she is a villain she is a bad one since her motivation is usually I was a tool of another villain instead of what the readers are originally led to believe.

I also stand by my statement that she lost her one chance to become a amazing character to stand out among the rest. With the Scarlet Witch Marvel wasted the potential to tell a powerful story about regrets, forgiveness, and redemption, and if done right I probably would have thought the Scarlet Witch was a amazing character afterwards but since they back pedaled that isn't the case.

Really Rochedalaix, their was not wasted opotunity at all to make Wanda into a Villain cause really, Dissembles and HoM, that was not the point. Wanda was turned into a force of Nature, a Plot point to meet editorial mandate to change things around for the Marvel Offices to come up with new stories and re-hash old ones and start heroes vs. heroes. Development of a Hero to a Villain cannot happen overnight, just changing things so Fast as they did to Wanda was Lazy Writing and a form of a mandate as much as their can be one. Even so, Marvel never took an time or work to even go anywhere with Wanda after HoM, the point was done and they got where they wanted, new world, new ways to tell stories, so in fact she was done. They put her in purgatorial so she can be a mystery, what was it all about, what does this mean and really they did nothing with it. So in the end it was all Plot point desires for Wanda, no plan for a Villain role.

When the time was right and they felt like it they brought her back with the manipulation and control by a Villain, cause the story Bendis came-up with was just way overboard and never made sense.

In the end it does not matter what you may want, it is what Marvel Wants! They wanted a change of pace and got it. Now they want Wanda back and they give reason why and I still believe are giving more reasons to come. Wanda was never made into a villain or missed the moment to be one cause that was never the plan for her, it was plot point and then when enough time passed, bring her back with comeback stories. We are still in the middle of that story, so really more time will give us more story of comeback. It is not a fast one, Marvel is taking their time and milking all of HoM they can, but really it is coming to an end.

[Emma's Midriff]

So, who was 'right' when Scott decided to BBQ the earth, or while he and Emma dined on steaks marinated in human blood? Following your 'principal of causality', who was right there?

Scott was. In AvX 12 it was made explicitly clear that Scott was fighting against the Phoenix from the inside.

[klinton]

Scott was. In AvX 12 it was made explicitly clear that Scott was fighting against the Phoenix from the inside.

But then he was clearly victimized, and not a hero...right? Thus, he's a villain who needs to be killed? Or have I misunderstood the reason Wanda's name was ever brought up in this thread?

[Wren]

Jason Aaron's Hellfire club kids are probably the lamest and most annoying villains I've ever read, and they cheapen the X-Men who can't handle them. They are really awful.

Yes. I kind of got into Kid Frankenstein, but not as a Hellfire club member and the others need to DIAF.

God, Wolverine and the X-Men in general is just one long trainwreck. Remember that time the x-men were turned into clowns? Whoever that was needs to die as well. Dog is a pretty horrible character too. If they were gonna bring Dog back at least make it awesome not whatever that thing was. This phoenix arc isn't much better though I would accept keeping Faithful John around for a better writer to use...

I really don't understand why that book continues, it's like a year-long joke with no punchline.

[Emma's Midriff]

But then he was clearly victimized, and not a hero...right? Thus, he's a villain who needs to be killed? Or have I misunderstood the reason Wanda's name was ever brought up in this thread?

Probably the same reason that posts like this were written:

Cyclops. oh please kill him

[klinton]

Probably the same reason that posts like this were written:

Fair point, actually. I'm not a Cyke fan so I'm probably oblivious to anti-Cyke posting. It does seem to come up often enough though, eh?

For the record, I don't personally consider Scott to be a villain either. I bring up his 'sins' only as a counter point to Wanda bashing.

[Jumpoff AKA JohnnyBlazed]

Blackout. The god Superior spiderman should have killed him.

[Rochedalaix]

Really Rochedalaix, their was not wasted opotunity at all to make Wanda into a Villain cause really, Dissembles and HoM, that was not the point. Wanda was turned into a force of Nature, a Plot point to meet editorial mandate to change things around for the Marvel Offices to come up with new stories and re-hash old ones and start heroes vs. heroes. Development of a Hero to a Villain cannot happen overnight, just changing things so Fast as they did to Wanda was Lazy Writing and a form of a mandate as much as their can be one. Even so, Marvel never took an time or work to even go anywhere with Wanda after HoM, the point was done and they got where they wanted, new world, new ways to tell stories, so in fact she was done. They put her in purgatorial so she can be a mystery, what was it all about, what does this mean and really they did nothing with it. So in the end it was all Plot point desires for Wanda, no plan for a Villain role.

When the time was right and they felt like it they brought her back with the manipulation and control by a Villain, cause the story Bendis came-up with was just way overboard and never made sense.

In the end it does not matter what you may want, it is what Marvel Wants! They wanted a change of pace and got it. Now they want Wanda back and they give reason why and I still believe are giving more reasons to come. Wanda was never made into a villain or missed the moment to be one cause that was never the plan for her, it was plot point and then when enough time passed, bring her back with comeback stories. We are still in the middle of that story, so really more time will give us more story of comeback. It is not a fast one, Marvel is taking their time and milking all of HoM they can, but really it is coming to an end.

Whether Marvel intended to make Wanda a villain or not doesn't matter, because they did make her into a villain, she was just a terrible villain instead of a amazing one. Also Wanda's come back story is over she has already made her comeback as a hero it was just done so poorly I can't consider her a amazing villain or a amazing hero, now I see her as just a boring character taking up panels better left for the more interesting characters on her team.