New Hero Armors Up In "Invincible Iron Man" Relaunch From Bendis, Caselli

[macattack]

Not really. Every time Marvel pulls this stunt they shout from the highest tower about how the haters just can't stand seeing [under represented group] take a place on their shelves and don't want to include [under represented demographic] into the comics community.

And yet, as you've just said, Mosaic is completely uncontroversial.


Those are mutually exclusive statements. Only one of them can be true.

I think it's pretty obvious which one is true, but certain people don't want to admit it.

I like the idea of Mosaic, personally, I'm probably going to try it when it comes out. Riri's run as IM I'm never buying in a million years, however.

[Yagamifire]

I think it's pretty obvious which one is true, but certain people don't want to admit it.

I like the idea of Mosaic, personally, I'm probably going to try it when it comes out. Riri's run as IM I'm never buying in a million years, however.

That's one of the things that confuses me.

"Comics fandom can't stand [identity]..."

*Comics history contains long-standing popular characters of [identity]...some of whom have LONG been denied a larger platform BY MARVEL for recognition*

One of these things is a fact. The other is not. Marvel claims it is one...when it is really the other.

A company that talks about how diverse they are...literally a couple weeks after callously and casually killing off a black character that is EXTREMELY popular in the MCU right now simply to create a conflict. The cognitive dissonance one must suffer to juggle these two things in their brain and not recognize the inherent contradiction is BAFFLING.

[Frontier]

That's totally different though.

Well, at least two of those characters are deeply entrenched in the Batman mythos and are long-time supporting characters.

I guess Riri is comparable to Jean Paul, though we'll see how Bendis handles establishing her and her assuming the identity (with this being Bendis, I'm not expecting much) compared to AzBats. Though the goals going into making them legacy characters is probably completely different.

[Bluebolt1967]

I'm way late to this party but am enjoying reading all of the posts from many people like myself who are dismayed by what Marvel has planned for post-Civil War II. I don't buy the two Iron Man comics because of Bendis, but it's unfortunate that Marvel hyped Tony Stark's place in the MU after Secret Wars only to change course so quickly.

I'm sure that the next big event, which will kick off the next season of All New, Much Awesomer Marvel, will be the grand return of the original heroes to the MU, but I'm no longer sure if I'll be around for this homecoming event. Wow, that would actually be a good name for it - Homecoming

[Yagamifire]

Well, at least two of those characters are deeply entrenched in the Batman mythos and are long-time supporting characters.

I guess Riri is comparable to Jean Paul, though we'll see how Bendis handles establishing her and her assuming the identity (with this being Bendis, I'm not expecting much) compared to AzBats. Though the goals going into making them legacy characters is probably completely different.

That's a very strong point considering Jean Paul as replacement, much like John Walker, was a story to develop the replacement while simultaneously illustrating how utterly necessary the original hero was and how ill-equipped the replacement was. The point of those stories were actually to build-up the original and their importance. I actually just re-read The Captain and was amazed at how good of a read it was. Also Battlestar was great in it and was my favorite character in it though EVERYONE had so much personality.

[Frontier]

I at least hope Bendis makes the most out of the Civil War II tie-in issues, since they're probably going to be the last few issues with Tony (at least the real Tony) we've got left (not counting International).

[Teek]

That's one of the things that confuses me.

"Comics fandom can't stand [identity]..."

*Comics history contains long-standing popular characters of [identity]...some of whom have LONG been denied a larger platform BY MARVEL for recognition*

One of these things is a fact. The other is not. Marvel claims it is one...when it is really the other.

A company that talks about how diverse they are...literally a couple weeks after callously and casually killing off a black character that is EXTREMELY popular in the MCU right now simply to create a conflict. The cognitive dissonance one must suffer to juggle these two things in their brain and not recognize the inherent contradiction is BAFFLING.

Comics fans kept Spider-Girl going for 100+ issues.
Marvel tried to cancel it multiple times before finally succeeding.

Comics fans embraced the Young Avengers in a way that new characters rarely get.
Marvel gave the book thirteen issues before regulating them to event tie-ins and a 9-issue arc that took two years to get out the door before dismantling them completely so Kieron Gillen could continue his Young Loki storyline out of their remains.


Tell me again how much the fans hate diversity and Marvel are the champions of it.

I'm sure that the next big event, which will kick off the next season of All New, Much Awesomer Marvel, will be the grand return of the original heroes to the MU, but I'm no longer sure if I'll be around for this homecoming event. Wow, that would actually be a good name for it - Homecoming

There is an approximately 130% chance that "Marvel Homecoming" will be company-wide relaunch of all the titles right around July of next year.

[Spider-Tron]

Not interested but never interested in Iron Man and/or Tony Stark either so no draw for me.

[8BitRedBeard]

This is just getting ridiculous, I too will be dropping this book. I guess Amazing Spider-Man will be the only Marvel book I'll be picking up....until they make Peter pass the torch to Gwen Stacy.

[Kurolegacy]

That's one of the things that confuses me.

"Comics fandom can't stand [identity]..."

*Comics history contains long-standing popular characters of [identity]...some of whom have LONG been denied a larger platform BY MARVEL for recognition*

One of these things is a fact. The other is not. Marvel claims it is one...when it is really the other.

A company that talks about how diverse they are...literally a couple weeks after callously and casually killing off a black character that is EXTREMELY popular in the MCU right now simply to create a conflict. The cognitive dissonance one must suffer to juggle these two things in their brain and not recognize the inherent contradiction is BAFFLING.

Throw in the fact that it was done by the same writer who is now replacing Tony with Riri as if those of us who are black comic book readers were just begging for black characters.

Frankly I find it kind of insulting that rather than using what they've got to its potential (Hell Ewing created a solid run with the Mighty Avengers who were mostly composed of minority heroes) they just choose the route of replacing popular heroes as if we need our hand held. As I said earlier, I wouldn't really care if she had been introduced properly, become an actual member of the cast, possibly become Tony's protege and had some organic growth with her armor becoming someone of her own. But instead, they're taking this character who we know literally nothing about and has had probably about 3 small scenes out of the entire relaunch and said that she's not only replacing Tony as Iron Man but is smarter than him. The hamfisted way they're going about this is just annoying and guarantees that I don't buy this book.

[Bluebolt1967]

There is an approximately 130% chance that "Marvel Homecoming" will be company-wide relaunch of all the titles right around July of next year.

Yes, we're both absolutely right about this. This upcoming season of crap titles might gain some new readers - that's a good thing - but also looks to be pissing off a bunch of older readers - ask DC, that's a bad thing. But by next year, the big company event will be one that brings the main heroes back into the fold. It'll be a big hoo-haw, which will excite older, lapsed readers, similar to DC Rebirth, and will lead to more relaunched titles. Sad and cynical, Marvel...

[Frontier]

And killing off Rhodey now looks like even more of a big waste, because he would've been an awesome mentor for Riri...but then again, Bendis didn't care enough to use Lila, so I doubt he cared enough to use Rhodey after his "swan song" arc in Invincible .

[Orbus]

That has not been my experience.

One thing I particularly like about the approach to Mosaic thus far is that Marvel has not lead with the fact that he is African-American since that isn't, y'know, actually really relevant. The promos I've seen so far have just treated him as a hyped new character and I much prefer that approach.

Well I've definitely seen it both here and elsewhere. Partially to do with the character being an Inhuman but also because he's African-American. Granted Marvel did lay it on thick by having the writer of the series promote the idea that he's a basketball player and into hip hop which I doubt will be a big part of the series but it's being used by people to write the character off when I doubt it would be an issue for a non-black character. I've definitely seen people argue "why do we need another minority character?", "haven't we got enough already?". Predicting the book to fail in a sneering way and even some saying the hope it fails.

Which confirms that marvel knows what they did wrong. And of course the fact that Thor 3: Ragnarök will be in cinemas... Of course thats the exact moment (or slightly before) where Odinson returns in the comics...

Nope. Of all the "replacements" this is the only one that we can as good as take to the bank it was planned because it's a story Jason Aaron wanted to tell. It's an underlying theme of all his Thor work prior to Jane picking up the hammer what makes a person worthy and he's never much hidden the fact that Odinson will be back as Thor.

I hardly Marvel views it as a mistake when the sales are good and they are getting a lot of positive critic reviews for the series. I can imagine that they would ask Aaron to hold off on returning Odinson until sales dip or the have a new season to promote..like they have now.

So it is a difference of opinion. I don't like it and dropped it. Felt just too much of a ripoff and it was just the wrong time to do a Civil War II just because they wanted to use the hipe from Cap 3: Civil War.

Marvel have never actually disguised the fact that Civil War II was done because of the movie. On the one side you have fans asking why aren't Marvel trying to capitalize on the success of the movies (even though it's largely accepted that hardly ever happens in comics) and on the other side others who hate it when the comics follow the movies. Making a sequel with different themes and players seems like a logical move.

I disagree. There are too many books I don't like in ANAD and all the mentioned changes is exactly why I hate ANAD until now. And I had so much hope! At the beginning of ANAD my Marvel pull list contained over 40 titels. Now its down to 12...

Well good for you in a way. You save money. I'm pretty satisfied with the way things are.

I can tell you why: I hate the fact that they are unable to do a run up to issue #30 or #40 these days. Marvel wants to max out on the issue #1 (because they sell better) but you can also have too many! I would like to see some quality returning to marvel, not just have a new issue #1 once a year...

Yes but surely you knew this. Marvel said they were taking a season approach post Secret Wars. Marvel is a business they are going to do what works best for them and while yes, I used to find it annoying I don't see it as big deal anymore particularly if it's the same creative team on the relaunched book.

Not to mention it can really save books. Marvel found that out back in the 2000s when instead of letting Peter David's great Captain Marvel series die due to low sales they relaunched it extending it's run. Cult favorite Spider-Girl was also saved more than once with this approach and even recently it seemed people liked Al Ewing's Mighty Avengers but it didn't seem to be catching on so they relaunched it and it did better. If it saves books that fans are enjoying I'd say that's a good thing.

Its not the fact that he is brainwashed yet again, it's the fact how marvel wants to use this for shock and awe just to push sales... As if we really would believe that Cap (the one and only Steve) was Hydra all this time, pleaaase...

Ah but plenty of people believed just that. It's not that much of a jump to say that they have altered Cap's memories or history in some way for shock value to thinking they've permanently altered Steve Rogers forever. It's a story and while Sam Wilson: Captain America isn't my favorite book out now Spencer has proved himself a writer who can make this concept work well.

I think people are still buying it because they hope to see Odinson again. That's what I do... I still buy it and in every issue I hope to see Jane die and Odinson return.

I refuse to believe that many people buy a book they don't enjoy in the hopes of seeing a character pop up again in an age where the internet will tell you "Odinson will make his return in #(whatever)". Even if it's a surprise you'll know about it while the physical books are still on the rack.

Why? Because I love the fact that the Hulk is something menacing, some beast or lets say a dark side to someone? To Bruce Banner?! Because HULK was always about this and not about a hip young dashing asian dude who just wants to be cool? Who is cool and hip and metro when he is the hulk and behaves like a cool teenager from the block? It's a shame what Hulk has become and yes, I read all issues from this run, mainly because I wanted to know what happened to Bruce, that was the only reason at all.

Except the popular era where the Hulk was a snarky mob boss or the other popular period where Banner was cured of his schizophrenia and the different aspects of the Hulks merged and he became a more traditional heroic character. In my opinion the character never quite recovered from that being reversed and they made sure he could never properly go back.

Admittedly I haven't been reading Totally Awesome Hulk so correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't it been hinted Cho will grapple with the darker aspects the Hulk brings. I'm sure I've heard that. So if your aversion to the book is the lack of traditional Hulk themes I'd say you're going to get them. If your aversion is simply that human identity is Asian then sorry I can't help you there.

Thats true for once. I have the Old Man which I enjoyed so far. But I dropped the regular Wolverine run so...

So there you go. You've still got Logan and another fan favorite character has her own book.

See, rebirth is sort of a relaunch but not really one. I won't go into details because this is the marvel forum. But they do it the right way. They did New52 wich got #52 issues of their main books (something Marvel is incapable of) and they are going for issues #1000 with Detective Comics and Action Comics (yes I know, renumbering... ). I was a marvel fan for years but over the last months (to be exact since ANAD) I've become more and more detached from marvel and at the same time attached to DC. They write just so much more quality stuff and not everything looks hip and cool and "young" in DC, they focus more on stories for adults and not 10year olds. Again, I am not at all just "dissing" Marvel, I am genuinely sad about the drop in quality at Marvel.

Hasn't the major problem with comic books according to pretty much every expert on the subject is that it lost it's once primary audience in children? If Ms Marvel and Miles Morales Spider-Man sell well digitally (pretty much the future of the medium) and to a mix of old and young these characters are worth keeping around.

Frankly the 'darker' styled DC universe in the New 52 struck me as a huge attempt to be 'adult' with characters which were best known for being the kind uncles of super heroes. Part of the appeal is that it superficially goes back to the simpler tone and that's what we're talking about here. Nothing in either the New 52 or Rebirth is really 'adult' just like every other mainstream book they are PG 13 levels. The only thing adult about Rebirth is a portrays the closer to what adult fans are nostalgic about when they were kids.

I disagree. You just don't change all the beloved characters because it's so damn political correct nowadays... You want diversity, you invent new heroes that people can get accustomed and attached to. You don't just change nearly every A-Lister forward-, backwards- and crosswise...

Disagree all you want but it's pretty much proven than a new minority character will struggle because fans of the big two companies have conditioned their readers to only care about a select group of characters. The idea of legacy heroes has consistently worked to promote new characters particularly non straight white males.

As as been said in publishing the likes of Cap, Iron Man and Thor are not A-Listers. And hey it's not like you've got Steve Rogers, Stephen Strange, Peter Parker, the 05 X-Men, Odinson (soon enough) and more to enjoy..oh wait you have.

[Yagamifire]

Well I've definitely seen it both here and elsewhere. Partially to do with the character being an Inhuman but also because he's African-American.

So we both have anecdotal evidence. Big deal.

Though I will say I understand him being an Inhuman as an eye-roller.

The Inhuman's are not going to be "a thing". Marvel needs to learn that lol. People like their X-men and trying to use the Inhumans to supplant them is a HILARIOUSLY losing strategy. Once Fox & Marvel start playing nice you'll see the Inhumans vanish.

Granted Marvel did lay it on thick by having the writer of the series promote the idea that he's a basketball player and into hip hop which I doubt will be a big part of the series but it's being used by people to write the character off when I doubt it would be an issue for a non-black character. I've definitely seen people argue "why do we need another minority character?", "haven't we got enough already?". Predicting the book to fail in a sneering way and even some saying the hope it fails.

100% the opposite of my experience. The only comic folks I know have been, at worst, "whatever" towards the character.

I do predict the book will fail though.

And why? Marvel doesn't actually push these characters. It's almost always just a token attempt. And by "these" I mean "new" unless they ABSOLUTELY blow-up...which is usually incidental to Marvels actual efforts. Hell, sometimes its in SPITE of Marvel.

Beyond that, Marvel's entire comic book structure hobbles new characters ability to get over. It's why we saw an explosion of new characters back in the day versus the dearth of it now. The publishing methodology is utterly broken and bleeding the industry dry...but the big 2 refuse to acknowledge this.

Marvel have never actually disguised the fact that Civil War II was done because of the movie. On the one side you have fans asking why aren't Marvel trying to capitalize on the success of the movies (even though it's largely accepted that hardly ever happens in comics) and on the other side others who hate it when the comics follow the movies. Making a sequel with different themes and players seems like a logical move.

Civil War II has nothing to do with Cap 3 other than the words "Civil War" and the notion "Good guy punches good guy". It's a shallow attempt to capitalize on the movie and, as often happens, has A LOT surrounding it that has, once again, actively discouraged people I know from even CONSIDERING getting into Marvel comics despite being big fans of the characters and the movies.

Ah but plenty of people believed just that. It's not that much of a jump to say that they have altered Cap's memories or history in some way for shock value to thinking they've permanently altered Steve Rogers forever. It's a story and while Sam Wilson: Captain America isn't my favorite book out now Spencer has proved himself a writer who can make this concept work well.

Sadly I find Spencer's most recent issues of Sam Wilson to be getting pretty bad...and I think the previous Cap-wolf stuff was pretty weak and uninteresting.

Hasn't the major problem with comic books according to pretty much every expert on the subject is that it lost it's once primary audience in children? If Ms Marvel and Miles Morales Spider-Man sell well digitally (pretty much the future of the medium) and to a mix of old and young these characters are worth keeping around.

The entire format is child-unfriendly. Again, the entire publishing approach is young-reader/new-reader unfriendly. It pains me while making me glad I grew up at a time where this wasn't the case, which let me get into comics much more reasonably easy. The fact that Marvel is MURDERING at the box-office while the comics are selling the lowest numbers in the history of the medium should be all one needs to TOTALLY clean-house at the management level of Marvel comics while demanding a new approach (potentially one that returns to previous successful form).

Frankly the 'darker' styled DC universe in the New 52 struck me as a huge attempt to be 'adult' with characters which were best known for being the kind uncles of super heroes. Part of the appeal is that it superficially goes back to the simpler tone and that's what we're talking about here. Nothing in either the New 52 or Rebirth is really 'adult' just like every other mainstream book they are PG 13 levels. The only thing adult about Rebirth is a portrays the closer to what adult fans are nostalgic about when they were kids.

Which is why it to will (almost certainly) be a flash in the pan as well and the bleeding will just continue.

Disagree all you want but it's pretty much proven than a new minority character will struggle because fans of the big two companies have conditioned their readers to only care about a select group of characters. The idea of legacy heroes has consistently worked to promote new characters particularly non straight white males.

It is not conditioning. NEW READERS cannot be suffering under conditioning from an industry they've never been exposed to. The product approach, as is, is garbage. Poor value garbage. The publishing format is broken. The story-telling methodology is broken. The attitude surrounding the comics is broken. Avengers brings in a billion dollars and Marvel comics can't get A FRACTION of that number as issues moved off a shelf. It's a total farce. If Marvel is intent on bringing in NEW readers with this diversity, "conditioning" makes no sense as an argument for why these books (like comics in general) don't sell.

[Teste]

Ugh. So AGAIN we get a writer forcing a character based on his kids to replace a well established hero.

I'm eternally hoping the Sam Alexander Nova will be slowly tortured to death while begging his "daddy" to save him. Now we have Bendis replacing Iron Man with a character based on his daughter, too?

Really, it feels like Marvel should change its name to "Bendis' Marvel and the Inhumans".